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The I-do-not-like-Firefox-29-layout topic

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(For Forum Moderators: Please read /forums/forum-moderators/710264?last=59300)


Moderators, please read first before closing/removing this topic right away?
To those wanting to react here on this topic: please, also read ;)
Since my original posting https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/997009 was closed because one of the moderators felt it was going off-topic (although it was red a lot and had 131 "have-this-problem" in just a few days), here a kind of re-opening but on-topic.
Why? Because I feel we have the right to express our feelings on this major change. And publicly there is actually only this forum where that can be done on the Mozilla.org domain.
Sure, the change is there and we have to live with it (if we choose to). But that doesn't mean we can not have our voice here because after many, many years of supporting FF with our use, we suddenly are facing a layout we were always running away from.
So yes, that can cause ranting and so on (within the forum rules of course) because people feel strongly about there beloved browser.
(edit rules link note the whole topic is ordinarily outside the scope of the forum ... Posts in the Mozilla support forum must be either questions about the use of Firefox, ... Users who post about things other than Mozilla support will be directed to an alternative discussion place .... . ~J99)

Plus this way you can centralize all the negatives here instead of a lot of separate postings about the same subject ;)
To the people reacting here in this topic: there is only 1 real way to let Mozilla itself know how you feel on the new lay out and that is not through this forum. The way is to go to https://input.mozilla.org/feedback/ and let it know there.
edit You need to use a supported Firefox to post Feedback so that will soon not be possible from Fx28 2nd edit. I was wrong feedback works with any version of Fiefpx now~J99

And I think when that is done in normal words (so no f*ck you rants and so on) and suggestions, then maybe, just maybe, it has some effect.
Also, there is an Mozilla support page with info on how to get the "old look" back, see How to make the new Firefox look like the old FirefoxBut it will only partly restore the old look, certain FF29 things can not be changed.

And yes, I myself am back to Firefox 28 which is not supported or suggested by Mozilla because it has things (bugs and security) that are not fixed in it. (Edit Please use Official downloads if you must downgrade links in Install an older version of Firefox and the growing list of exploits you will open yourself up to is listed here: https://www.mozilla.org/security/known-vulnerabilities/firefox.html ~J99)

I am not suggesting or advertising to others to do the same. It is a risk I am willing to take and only say it is an option.
edit My reason to go back to FF 28 is because that version still has the intuitive feel and look Firefox one was praised for. With a logical lay out and a good way to simply customize it (also in about:config).
For those who say/think "Come one man, stop whining! Grow up and just accept that Firefox has to go with its time!", to them I say: nope ;)

First edit Modified May 10, 2014 7:54:58 PM BST by John99
2nd: re feedback

'''(For Forum Moderators: Please read [/forums/forum-moderators/710264?last=59300])''' Moderators, please read first before closing/removing this topic right away?<br> To those wanting to react here on this topic: please, also read ;)<br> Since my original posting https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/997009 was closed because one of the moderators felt it was going off-topic (although it was red a lot and had 131 "have-this-problem" in just a few days), here a kind of re-opening but on-topic.<br> Why? Because I feel we have the right to express our feelings on this major change. And publicly there is actually only this forum where that can be done on the Mozilla.org domain.<br> Sure, the change is there and we have to live with it (if we choose to). But that doesn't mean we can not have our voice here because after many, many years of supporting FF with our use, we suddenly are facing a layout we were always running away from.<br> So yes, that can cause ranting and so on (within the forum rules of course) because people feel strongly about there beloved browser.<br> (edit rules [[Forum rules and guidelines|link]] note the whole topic is ordinarily outside the scope of the forum <sub> ... Posts in the Mozilla support forum must be either questions about the use of Firefox, ... Users who post about things other than Mozilla support will be directed to an alternative discussion place .... . </sub> ~J99) Plus this way you can centralize all the negatives here instead of a lot of separate postings about the same subject ;)<br> To the people reacting here in this topic: there is only 1 real way to let Mozilla itself know how you feel on the new lay out and that is not through this forum. The way is to go to https://input.mozilla.org/feedback/ and let it know there. <br/> <sub>'''edit''' <s>You need to use a supported Firefox to post Feedback so that will soon not be possible from Fx28 </s> 2nd edit. I was wrong feedback works with any version of Fiefpx now~J99 <br/> And I think when that is done in normal words (so no f*ck you rants and so on) and suggestions, then maybe, just maybe, it has some effect.<br> Also, there is an Mozilla support page with info on how to get the "old look" back, see <!-- https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-to-make-new-firefox-look-like-old-firefox EDIT better link as extone is capable of redirecting to match: locales, versions, & OS --> [[How to make the new Firefox look like the old Firefox]]But it will only partly restore the old look, certain FF29 things can not be changed.<br> And yes, I myself am back to Firefox 28 which is not supported or suggested by Mozilla because it has things (bugs and security) that are not fixed in it. ('''Edit''' Please use Official downloads if you must downgrade links in [[Install an older version of Firefox]] and the growing list of exploits you will open yourself up to is listed here: https://www.mozilla.org/security/known-vulnerabilities/firefox.html ~J99) I am not suggesting or advertising to others to do the same. It is a risk I am willing to take and only say it is an option. <br /> edit My reason to go back to FF 28 is because that version still has the intuitive feel and look Firefox one was praised for. With a logical lay out and a good way to simply customize it (also in about:config).<br> For those who say/think "Come one man, stop whining! Grow up and just accept that Firefox has to go with its time!", to them I say: nope ;)<br><br> First edit Modified May 10, 2014 7:54:58 PM BST by John99 <br />2nd: re feedback

Modified by John99

Chosen solution

Spread the word:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/bring-back-the-old-firefox-features


Comment by a Moderator Some of the subjects in the long thread

Modified May 27, 2014 10:17:21 AM BST by John99

P.S. Feedback & discussions options see also links in /questions/998106?page=2#answer-568374

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notthenineoclocknews 0 solutions 13 answers

@Trupiaar: This is the same attitude Google takes to opposition to idiotic and meaningless changes, as well.

I'm sorry to say that, as a result of this entire issue, Mozilla - an organization I'd grown to deeply respect - has now lost my trust and I won't be subscribing to StartMail when it's released.

@Trupiaar: This is the same attitude Google takes to opposition to idiotic and meaningless changes, as well. I'm sorry to say that, as a result of this entire issue, Mozilla - an organization I'd grown to deeply respect - has now lost my trust and I won't be subscribing to StartMail when it's released.
GreenGreat 3 solutions 50 answers

Hi I have not read everything but would just like to flag up as suggested by another poster, that my primary problem is: that the announcement did come round, but like others I missed it because it was just a big headline saying that Firefox cares about us (which I am sure is true) but all the new stuff was in little blue links at the bottom, and because my screen is not very big, and I am always busy, I did not see that. So the layout changes, which just look like your main menu has vanished, took me by surprise.

It would not be hard to make sure that the update announcement has it at the top that there have been big changes. I just thought by browser or computer was playing up.

I do not necessarily want to revert to the familiar version, we need to move forwards, but I would like to know how to restore ONE closed tab. As the moment the new menu allows me to restore ALL closed tabs (over what time period?) - which is useful in itself - but not locate the one, and re-open that. This wasted me some work.

If nobody here knows the answer to that I will eventually post it somewhere as a new topic, maybe by then people will know?

We had a way or restoring all tabs before, but now I can't remember what it was :-) Oh yes, Restore All Windows. Now I can't find that ... :-( Maybe it isn't needed?

Hi I have not read everything but would just like to flag up as suggested by another poster, that my primary problem is: that the announcement did come round, but like others I missed it because it was just a big headline saying that Firefox cares about us (which I am sure is true) but all the new stuff was in little blue links at the bottom, and because my screen is not very big, and I am always busy, I did not see that. So the layout changes, which just look like your main menu has vanished, took me by surprise. It would not be hard to make sure that the update announcement has it at the top that there have been big changes. I just thought by browser or computer was playing up. I do not necessarily want to revert to the familiar version, we need to move forwards, but I would like to know how to restore ONE closed tab. As the moment the new menu allows me to restore ALL closed tabs (over what time period?) - which is useful in itself - but not locate the one, and re-open that. This wasted me some work. If nobody here knows the answer to that I will eventually post it somewhere as a new topic, maybe by then people will know? We had a way or restoring all tabs before, but now I can't remember what it was :-) Oh yes, Restore All Windows. Now I can't find that ... :-( Maybe it isn't needed?

Chosen Solution

Spread the word:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/bring-back-the-old-firefox-features


Comment by a Moderator Some of the subjects in the long thread

Modified May 27, 2014 10:17:21 AM BST by John99

P.S. Feedback & discussions options see also links in /questions/998106?page=2#answer-568374

Spread the word:<br> http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/bring-back-the-old-firefox-features ----------- Comment by a Moderator Some of the subjects in the long thread * Semi Silent updates and users resorting to Firefox 28 or Firefox clones <br /> [/questions/998106?page=4#answer-579482] * Community Opinion [/questions/998106?page=4#answer-575596] * Install two versions of Firefox [/questions/998106?page=2#answer-568397] * It looks like Chrome [/questions/998106?page=3#answer-573617] * It badly affects productivity [/questions/998106?page=3#answer-572502] * A Pale Moon Fan [/questions/998106#answer-568231] * Its too dark to see the tabs [/questions/997907#answer-580119] (adjacent thread) *''' WORKAROUNDS explanations and help articles ''' ** (immediately under the first post) ,make it look like the old one [/questions/998106#answer-566574] ** The fact we can not influence Developers. [/questions/998106#answer-567244] ** My personal opinion some things that should be changed [/questions/998106?page=2#answer-568373] ** List of help articles and useful posts [/questions/998106?page=2#answer-568374] Modified May 27, 2014 10:17:21 AM BST by John99 ----------------- P.S. Feedback & discussions options see also links in [/questions/998106?page=2#answer-568374]

Modified by John99

Question owner

A few days ago I mentioned the fact that the reviews by sites were mostly positive on FF29 but the reactions on those reviews were mostly negative.
Now on those same sites, it slowly comes clear that the community in general is not happy (understatement) with the changes introduced with FF29.
The URL-s below were not the result of a "result aimed search". It's just the search for "Firefox 29" on Google and then results from last week. Two examples from the first search page:
http://www.toptechnews.com/story.xhtml?story_id=033001XWOHRL
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9248310/Firefox_UI_revamp_sparks_complaints_searches_for_alternatives
I mention this not as an "I told you so!"-reaction but just to show that it really runs deep. Not only here on this (and other Mozilla based) forum but also in general.

A few days ago I mentioned the fact that the reviews by sites were mostly positive on FF29 but the reactions on those reviews were mostly negative.<br> Now on those same sites, it slowly comes clear that the community in general is not happy (understatement) with the changes introduced with FF29.<br> The URL-s below were not the result of a "result aimed search". It's just the search for "Firefox 29" on Google and then results from last week. Two examples from the first search page:<br> http://www.toptechnews.com/story.xhtml?story_id=033001XWOHRL <br> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9248310/Firefox_UI_revamp_sparks_complaints_searches_for_alternatives <br> I mention this not as an "I told you so!"-reaction but just to show that it really runs deep. Not only here on this (and other Mozilla based) forum but also in general.

Modified by meegja

amirtal2000 0 solutions 21 answers

this is a sign of the way these types of software/services are heading.

like facebook updating its interface, or youtube changing the comments section.

just open your preferred application store on your phone and see how many updates are available right now...

users considerations are not relevant anymore. developers make changes as they see fit and users are left to "just accept it" they know what is best for us. we are all just silly users who needs to be guarded from themselves...

this is especially a problem since the gap between developers and users only gets bigger this way, users are left with a feeling they have no control over the app/website they are using (and this border is getting harder to notice), and just have to accept the decisions made for them.

apple started this, google is happily following suite, and it seems firefox is also guilty of this...

this is a sign of the way these types of software/services are heading. like facebook updating its interface, or youtube changing the comments section. just open your preferred application store on your phone and see how many updates are available right now... users considerations are not relevant anymore. developers make changes as they see fit and users are left to "just accept it" they know what is best for us. we are all just silly users who needs to be guarded from themselves... this is especially a problem since the gap between developers and users only gets bigger this way, users are left with a feeling they have no control over the app/website they are using (and this border is getting harder to notice), and just have to accept the decisions made for them. apple started this, google is happily following suite, and it seems firefox is also guilty of this...
zeterian 0 solutions 11 answers

Good articles, hopefully the more negative feedback Mozilla get the more likely they'll provide a fix to the UI fiasco. As I said in this thread: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/998106?page=4#question-reply I like things the way they are. I made them that way FOR A REASON. It used to be that Firefox led innovation, now you're just copying chrome or whatever and changing for the sake of change. Some innovations are good, forcing whatever is popular at the moment onto users is not. BIG CHANGES TO THE UI SHOULD BE OPTIONAL.

Good articles, hopefully the more negative feedback Mozilla get the more likely they'll provide a fix to the UI fiasco. As I said in this thread: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/998106?page=4#question-reply I like things the way they are. I made them that way FOR A REASON. It used to be that Firefox led innovation, now you're just copying chrome or whatever and changing for the sake of change. Some innovations are good, forcing whatever is popular at the moment onto users is not. BIG CHANGES TO THE UI SHOULD BE OPTIONAL.
notthenineoclocknews 0 solutions 13 answers

@GreenGreat: "...I do not necessarily want to revert to the familiar version, we need to move forwards...."

"Move forwards" from what, exactly? Firefox wasn't broken to begin with, so why 'fix' it and cause a great deal of anger and angst? That's the sort of bloody-minded policy Google employs.

Mozilla aren't listening, they won't restore what they've taken away, and they no longer give a toss about those (meaning us, the end users) who've helped them grow. In short, they're now just a Google wannabe.

@GreenGreat: "...I do not necessarily want to revert to the familiar version, we need to move forwards...." "Move forwards" from what, exactly? Firefox wasn't broken to begin with, so why 'fix' it and cause a great deal of anger and angst? That's the sort of bloody-minded policy Google employs. Mozilla aren't listening, they won't restore what they've taken away, and they no longer give a toss about those (meaning us, the end users) who've helped them grow. In short, they're now just a Google wannabe.
GreenGreat 3 solutions 50 answers

I meant just that I am prepared to work with new versions - if we get the right support. Otherwise it's just silly. I'm not technical enough to know whether the changes are aggregate an improvement or not, but as a user I know that they affect me and despite the pros and cons I am left with one significant question that I don't have an answer to (how to restore a single tab ...). And if one low-impact user like me is left floundering, there must be a lot of others out there in similar situation ...

I meant just that I am prepared to work with new versions - if we get the right support. Otherwise it's just silly. I'm not technical enough to know whether the changes are aggregate an improvement or not, but as a user I know that they affect me and despite the pros and cons I am left with one significant question that I don't have an answer to (how to restore a single tab ...). And if one low-impact user like me is left floundering, there must be a lot of others out there in similar situation ...
notthenineoclocknews 0 solutions 13 answers

Definitely. There are now more of us who are inconvenienced and unhappy with this rubbish they've rolled out, than not.

If the whole idea behind it was to attempt to grab a mobile phone market from Google, then they should have left the desktop version alone and developed a separate app for mobiles.

I'm going to make a very sexist comment now and say that this is a typically male thing to do: make illogical decisions and push something on others that they didn't want, didn't need and didn't ask for.

Definitely. There are now more of us who are inconvenienced and unhappy with this rubbish they've rolled out, than not. If the whole idea behind it was to attempt to grab a mobile phone market from Google, then they should have left the desktop version alone and developed a separate app for mobiles. I'm going to make a very sexist comment now and say that this is a typically male thing to do: make illogical decisions and push something on others that they didn't want, didn't need and didn't ask for.

Modified by notthenineoclocknews

eldorel 0 solutions 3 answers

@John99

>> Also remember to vote on this thread, although the point you are making is slightly different from the thread title. (Currently 77 votes 513 views so this thread is not seeing major activity)

I'm not surprised that the view/vote ratio is so far off. ( current page stats at time of my post: 70 replies 388 have this problem 6402 views )

Go look at the sign in page for support.mozilla.com, there is no option visible for "create a new account".

( actual signup link: https://support.mozilla.org/users/authcontributor )

I had to use the "create a new question" wizard in order to setup an account and come vote on this.

It's almost like the site designers are trying to discourage user feedback.

@John99 >> Also remember to vote on this thread, although the point you are making is slightly different from the thread title. (Currently 77 votes 513 views so this thread is not seeing major activity) I'm not surprised that the view/vote ratio is so far off. ( current page stats at time of my post: 70 replies 388 have this problem '''6402 views ''' ) Go look at the sign in page for support.mozilla.com, there is no option visible for "create a new account". ( actual signup link: https://support.mozilla.org/users/authcontributor ) I had to use the "create a new question" wizard in order to setup an account and come vote on this. It's almost like the site designers are trying to discourage user feedback.

Modified by eldorel

notthenineoclocknews 0 solutions 13 answers

@eldorel: No, there isn't anywhere to 'create a new account' on the support page - and I agree - it seems they don't want to know, but all a person has to do is find an open thread, click on 'reply' to any comment and a barely-noticeable blue 'log in or create an account' will appear at the bottom.

@eldorel: No, there isn't anywhere to 'create a new account' on the support page - and I agree - it seems they don't want to know, but all a person has to do is find an open thread, click on 'reply' to any comment and a barely-noticeable blue 'log in or create an account' will appear at the bottom.
fung0 0 solutions 1 answers

If you can see this, then notthenineoclocknews' advice worked. Thanks!

By the way, FF29 sux. Nobody should EVER mess with the UI without overwhelming justification, and even then, changes should ALWAYS be reversible/optional for a decade or so.

If you can see this, then notthenineoclocknews' advice worked. Thanks! By the way, FF29 sux. Nobody should EVER mess with the UI without overwhelming justification, and even then, changes should ALWAYS be reversible/optional for a decade or so.
John99 971 solutions 13138 answers

Hi eldorel & notthenineoclocknews

Let's see if I can throw some light on this login problem.

Yes it is currently intentional that there is no sign on button, but that was not intended as a hindrance. You can also vote [I have this problem too] and subscribe to threads without being logged on.

The intention is that ordinarily users post a single question per thread and only post if they are asking a question. The current guidelines ask users not to post into other peoples questions.

There is no need to logon to see Knowledge base articles, or to view solved questions. It was therefore decided the best place for the registration was within the question asking flow, rather than make people register unnecessarily. I think there may have been talk recently of revising that.

This forum is not designed or intended as a discussion forum. More of a crowd sourced system for answering public support tickets.

Hi eldorel & notthenineoclocknews '''Let's see if I can throw some light on this login problem.''' Yes it is currently intentional that there is no sign on button, but that was not intended as a hindrance. You can also vote [I have this problem too] and subscribe to threads without being logged on. The intention is that ordinarily users post a single question per thread and only post if they are asking a question. The current guidelines ask users not to post into other peoples questions. There is no need to logon to see Knowledge base articles, or to view solved questions. It was therefore decided the best place for the registration was within the question asking flow, rather than make people register unnecessarily. I think there may have been talk recently of revising that. This forum is not designed or intended as a discussion forum. More of a crowd sourced system for answering public support tickets.
zeterian 0 solutions 11 answers

I agree, if I wanted a chrome UI I would be using chrome. I wouldn't be surprised if this was just a backdoor way for chrome to pilfer more of Firefox's users. I've turned off updating and will be switching to another browser in the future. There's 3 64 bit clones that use the old UI: Cyberfox, Pale Moon, and Waterfox

I agree, if I wanted a chrome UI I would be using chrome. I wouldn't be surprised if this was just a backdoor way for chrome to pilfer more of Firefox's users. I've turned off updating and will be switching to another browser in the future. There's 3 64 bit clones that use the old UI: Cyberfox, Pale Moon, and Waterfox
John99 971 solutions 13138 answers

Take note that 64bit versions will not be based on tier 1 supported Firefox code if for Windows.

Take note that 64bit versions will not be based on tier 1 supported Firefox code if for Windows.
zeterian 0 solutions 11 answers

Good to know, but if security patches are implemented it should be OK. I'm still investigating. I've had chrome for years now too. I just didn't like the UI and mostly (99%) used Firefox. That may change. I have no intention of updating Firefox to the new UI, so I either use an alternative clone or chrome. This change will just accelerate the loss of Firefox users. A lot of people feel betrayed and will abandon it for that reason alone.

Good to know, but if security patches are implemented it should be OK. I'm still investigating. I've had chrome for years now too. I just didn't like the UI and mostly (99%) used Firefox. That may change. I have no intention of updating Firefox to the new UI, so I either use an alternative clone or chrome. This change will just accelerate the loss of Firefox users. A lot of people feel betrayed and will abandon it for that reason alone.
notthenineoclocknews 0 solutions 13 answers

@zeterian: Well said! Betrayal is exactly the right word!

@zeterian: Well said! Betrayal is ''exactly'' the right word!

Question owner

@ John99 I think that the majority of people who choose to go back to FF 28 or choose to use an alternative Firebox based 64bit browser, rather take the risk of a somewhat less secure browser then to use a browser they can not (or will not) work with. Of course not advised and maybe even not understood at all by the developers but it's the reaction we have. The word betrayal is used and I too think it's a right word and also a big reason why people abandon FF 29. Yes, it's a feeling but it's a logical feeling. Here we had a browser we all use and configured it to how we like it (being it from an aesthetic point of view but also a lot of times a practical use point of view). A browser we use because we don't want to use IE, Chrome or whatever. And then suddenly without warning it is changed into a browser that has lost that all. So yes, betrayal is a right word.
About disabling updating: make sure you do that the right way. Mozilla is planning a kind of "semi-silent update". Read this article with lots more info on that. As I understand it will not be a forced update but rather another way of delivering it to users. In the article it's explained way better :)

@ John99 I think that the majority of people who choose to go back to FF 28 or choose to use an alternative Firebox based 64bit browser, rather take the risk of a somewhat less secure browser then to use a browser they can not (or will not) work with. Of course not advised and maybe even not understood at all by the developers but it's the reaction we have. The word ''betrayal'' is used and I too think it's a right word and also a big reason why people abandon FF 29. Yes, it's a feeling but it's a logical feeling. Here we had a browser we all use and configured it to how we like it (being it from an aesthetic point of view but also a lot of times a practical use point of view). A browser we use because we don't want to use IE, Chrome or whatever. And then suddenly without warning it is changed into a browser that has lost that all. So yes, betrayal is a right word.<br> About disabling updating: make sure you do that the right way. Mozilla is planning a kind of "semi-silent update". [http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9248411/Mozilla_plans_semi_silent_updates_to_tug_laggards_onto_the_newest_Firefox Read this article with lots more info on that.] As I understand it will not be a forced update but rather another way of delivering it to users. In the article it's explained way better :)

Modified by meegja

John99 971 solutions 13138 answers

Just a reminder for anyone reading or posting in this thread that it is not read by developers. All you are doing is chatting amongst yourselves.

Posting here makes no difference. Please use input to make a short comment. At least aggregated comments from that are made available for developers.

Just a reminder for anyone reading or posting in this thread that it is not read by developers. All you are doing is chatting amongst yourselves. Posting here makes no difference. Please use input to make a short comment. At least aggregated comments from that are made available for developers. * Use https://input.mozilla.org/en-US/feedback.

Modified by John99

Question owner

@ John99 Understood. But I would rather call it "discussing" then "chatting" ;) And since there is no place where this can be done, it happens here despite the forum rules. Okay, in the Forum rules and guidelines it stated very clearly what this forum is for. But it also states for non-support things there are alternatives like MozillaZine. But when you go there, the first thing you read is: MozillaZine's news site has gone into hibernation. Sure, the forum at MozillaZine is active but that first line is actually discouraging to go any further there, especially for new users.

@ John99 Understood. But I would rather call it "discussing" then "chatting" ;) And since there is no place where this can be done, it happens here despite the forum rules. Okay, in the ''Forum rules and guidelines'' it stated very clearly what this forum is for. But it also states for non-support things there are alternatives like MozillaZine. But when you go there, the first thing you read is: ''MozillaZine's news site has gone into hibernation.'' Sure, the forum at MozillaZine is active but that first line is actually discouraging to go any further there, especially for new users.