SUMO community discussions

Abolish the 'scoring system' on the support forum.

  • 25 Replies
  • Last reply by jscher2000 - Support Volunteer
  1. Happy112
    Happy112 226 posts
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    When I first joined   SUMO,   I made it abundantly clear how I felt about this   (what I call)  'scoring system' :   the mentioning of how many answers a contributor has posted and how many of those were solutions . The same goes for calling certain contributors   'Top 25 or Top 10 - contributor'.   (bear in mind that I'm a so called   'Top 10 contributor'     --     at the time I wrote this,   I was   '#3'). What purpose does this serve    ??? All it does is say:  this is a very good contributor,   that one is even better,  etc.. It convinces users that the contributor with the most answers and solutions to his/her name,   knows best,   and that they should choose their answer over that from a contributor with less answers and solutions to their name. Posting numerous times things like   'Well done',   'You're welcome',   etc.   will certainly increase the number of   'answers',   but does not make you a better contributor than someone with less answers to their name. I know that's what users think,   because they tell me so in   PMs   and emails. I even recall cases where someone   (not a   'Top 10/25' - contributor)   posted an answer;   a contributor with many answers/solutions to his name posted after him,   used a different link,  but it led to exactly the same solution that first mentioned had already provided,   and of course the   OP  chose   'mr. Big Shot's'   answer ...... I've also noticed that many contributors have a huge amount of answers/solutions to their name,   that they don't even   'deserve'. But again:   why maintain this scoring system,  which is about   quantity   instead of   quality   --   what purpose does it serve,   other than put pressure on contributors and turn the support forum into a competition    ??? (and boost some egoes   ...... )

    As time went by it's become more and more of an eyesore to me. When I see this   'Top 25/10'- contributor,   the number of answers and solutions :   I find it reprehensible and even repellent,   and I think that every contributor who does not want to see this scoring system abolished,   should be ashamed of themself.
    In my eyes modesty is very becoming and attractive,   as opposed to   'showing off'. I don't want to see a   'Top 10/25/50 or anything' :   it does not serve any purpose    !!! It's wrong in so many ways,   and I have reached the point where I don't want to have anything to do with   SUMO,  as long as this system is maintained. I see   (and know)  what this is doing to some contributors,   as well as how a lot of users react to it,   and I don't want to be any part of it anymore. This whole   'show-off-ish',   competition  ( look how good I am ),   which puts enormous pressure on contributors and gives users the wrong idea :   count me out. Being a contributor is about helping users   (and eachother),   and not about scoring and showing off. All I want to see is :   the contributors display name and avatar   -   period.   (and where applicable:  moderator and adminstrator). Somebody suggested that this system might be good to motivate contributors   ……..
    Motivate them to do what    ???   Ignore the fact that maybe they have a life outside   SUMO,   like a job,  or other obligations    ?
    Of course solutions will have to be marked as  'Chosen Solution' ,   so others will know and may beneft from it.
    Let's turn the support forum into what it's meant to be :   a place where users can ask questions and   (hopefully)   get the right answer which solves their problem.

    Let's abolish this   'scoring system'   and let modesty,   common decency and even common sense prevail.

    I never thought I'd say this,   but here's where   Mozilla can use   Microsoft support forum as a model   …….

    When I first joined &nbsp; SUMO, &nbsp; I made it abundantly clear how I felt about this &nbsp; (what I call)&nbsp; 'scoring system' : &nbsp; the mentioning of how many answers a contributor has posted and how many of those were solutions . The same goes for calling certain contributors &nbsp; 'Top 25 or Top 10 - contributor'. &nbsp; (bear in mind that I'm a so called &nbsp; 'Top 10 contributor' &nbsp; &nbsp; -- &nbsp; &nbsp; at the time I wrote this, &nbsp; I was &nbsp; '#3'). '' What purpose does this serve &nbsp; ??? '' All it does is say:&nbsp; this is a very good contributor, &nbsp; that one is even better, &nbsp;etc.. It convinces users that the contributor with the most answers and solutions to his/her name, &nbsp; knows best, &nbsp; and that they should choose their answer over that from a contributor with less answers and solutions to their name. Posting numerous times things like &nbsp; 'Well done', &nbsp; 'You're welcome', &nbsp; etc. &nbsp; will certainly increase the number of &nbsp; 'answers', &nbsp; but does not make you a better contributor than someone with less answers to their name. I know that's what users think, &nbsp; because they tell me so in &nbsp; PMs &nbsp; and emails. I even recall cases where someone &nbsp; (not a &nbsp; 'Top 10/25' - contributor) &nbsp; posted an answer; &nbsp; a contributor with many answers/solutions to his name posted after him, &nbsp; used a different link,&nbsp; but it led to exactly the same solution that first mentioned had already provided, &nbsp; and of course the &nbsp; OP&nbsp; chose &nbsp; 'mr. Big Shot's' &nbsp; answer ...... I've also noticed that many contributors have a huge amount of answers/solutions to their name, &nbsp; that they don't even &nbsp; 'deserve'. But again: &nbsp; why maintain this scoring system, &nbsp;which is about &nbsp; ''quantity'' &nbsp; instead of &nbsp; ''quality'' &nbsp; -- &nbsp; what purpose does it serve, &nbsp; other than put pressure on contributors and turn the support forum into a competition &nbsp; ??? (and boost some egoes &nbsp; ...... ) As time went by it's become more and more of an eyesore to me. When I see this &nbsp; 'Top 25/10'- contributor, &nbsp; the number of answers and solutions : &nbsp; I find it reprehensible and even repellent, &nbsp; and I think that every contributor who does not want to see this scoring system abolished, &nbsp; should be ashamed of themself. <BR>In my eyes modesty is very becoming and attractive, &nbsp; as opposed to &nbsp; 'showing off'. I don't want to see a &nbsp; 'Top 10/25/50 or anything' : &nbsp; it does not serve any purpose &nbsp; !!! It's wrong in so many ways, &nbsp; and I have reached the point where I don't want to have anything to do with &nbsp; SUMO,&nbsp; as long as this system is maintained. I see &nbsp; (and know)&nbsp; what this is doing to some contributors, &nbsp; as well as how a lot of users react to it, &nbsp; and I don't want to be any part of it anymore. This whole &nbsp; 'show-off-ish', &nbsp; competition &nbsp;( look how good I am ), &nbsp; which puts enormous pressure on contributors and gives users the wrong idea : &nbsp; count me out. Being a contributor is about helping users &nbsp; (and eachother), &nbsp; and not about scoring and showing off. All I want to see is : &nbsp; the contributors display name and avatar &nbsp; - &nbsp; period. &nbsp; (and where applicable:&nbsp; moderator and adminstrator). Somebody suggested that this system might be good to motivate contributors &nbsp; …….. <BR>Motivate them to do what &nbsp; ??? &nbsp; Ignore the fact that maybe they have a life outside &nbsp; SUMO, &nbsp; like a job,&nbsp; or other obligations &nbsp; ? <BR>Of course solutions will have to be marked as &nbsp;'Chosen Solution' , &nbsp; so others will know and may beneft from it.<BR> Let's turn the support forum into what it's meant to be : &nbsp; a place where users can ask questions and &nbsp; (hopefully) &nbsp; get the right answer which solves their problem. Let's abolish this &nbsp; 'scoring system' &nbsp; and let modesty, &nbsp; common decency and even common sense prevail. I never thought I'd say this, &nbsp; but here's where &nbsp; Mozilla can use &nbsp; Microsoft support forum as a model &nbsp; ……. <BR>

    Modified by Happy112 on

  2. guigs
    guigs 769 posts
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    Happy112 said

    What purpose does this serve    ??? All it does is say:  this is a very good contributor,   that one is even better,  etc.. It convinces users that the contributor with the most answers and solutions to his/her name,   knows best,   and that they should choose their answer over that from a contributor with less answers and solutions to their name.

    The scoring system currently in kitsune is a combination of solutions and answers which at up to a karma or score.

    In lithium, currently there is a discussion happening about Kudos. Some of the facts that came out of this conversation will be followed up on. However, you can see kudos given by registered users on any users profile. They can be received by solutions, kudos given to an article author and kudos given to a post in a thread or topic. However, they will not be seen unless a leaderboard is added to any of the pages - which right now there is none, nor does it look like there is plan for one.

    Happy112 said

    I even recall cases where someone (not a 'Top 10/25' - contributor) posted an answer; a contributor with many answers/solutions to his name posted after him, used a different link, but it led to exactly the same solution that first mentioned had already provided, and of course the OP chose 'mr. Big Shot's' answer ...... I've also noticed that many contributors have a huge amount of answers/solutions to their name, that they don't even 'deserve'. But again: why maintain this scoring system, what purpose does it serve?

    There will not be labels "Top x Contributor" anymore. There will only be ranks. These ranks will be an indicator of kudos and how much time is spent in the forum combined. Also roles, like moderator and administrator will not be visual, but they will be on a user's profile I think. However since this is the first run coming at the end of the month, these can be requested to be changed. Two examples you may have seen in the preview are "Returning Visitor" and "Sumo Contributor". I do think that it may address the leader board, 'top' label issue, but will not change the what is mentioned here as a deserving score. I would really like to get more feedback on this to change and hold accountable some of the moderation done there.

    Some objective motivations of a gamification system however are that it can motivate improvement and can be a form of recognition. I am thinking a leader board is not the solution to this. There are other ways that were suggested that could serve a similar purpose:

    • Customized Badges
    • Tags and Labels
    • Swag for participating on more busy forum visiting days

    I do not know what impact the later will have, however there are some consistent positive feedback about badges.

    The cons of the leader board mentioned here are that they promote unhealthy competition, a lack of common sense and a lack of common courtesy. I do not think this is what support or helping out another user is about. As a user I want the best answer, and I want to be able to find it quickly, and I work well with those with the opposite of these negative affects. I am not saying every user is going to be nice or courteous, but I think that it is important to be a role model with the qualities of sincerity, empathy and create a space of mutual respect and mutual purpose between user and helper.

    I do not want to call the kettle black, however I would love to hear more thoughts of how we can recognize contributors, and still encourage a healthy, safe place to give feedback and have a clear definition or common language for the intentions behind helping Mozilla Firefox Users.

    So I have a few main questions:

    • What are some of the situations that we can address to keep the space safe for all users?
    • What are some compromises we can come up with for showing healthy recognition? Sometimes more than a thank you is nice or sometimes it is just enough?
    • What do we do with kudos?

    -With good intentions, Rachel

    ''Happy112 [[#post-71342|said]]'' <blockquote> '' What purpose does this serve &nbsp; ??? '' All it does is say:&nbsp; this is a very good contributor, &nbsp; that one is even better, &nbsp;etc.. It convinces users that the contributor with the most answers and solutions to his/her name, &nbsp; knows best, &nbsp; and that they should choose their answer over that from a contributor with less answers and solutions to their name. </blockquote> The scoring system currently in kitsune is a combination of solutions and answers which at up to a karma or score. In lithium, currently there is a discussion happening about Kudos. Some of the facts that came out of this conversation will be followed up on. However, ''you can see kudos given by registered users on any users profile. ''They can be received by solutions, kudos given to an article author and kudos given to a post in a thread or topic. ''However, they will not be seen unless a leaderboard'' is added to any of the pages - which right now there is none, nor does it look like there is plan for one. ''Happy112 [[#post-71342|said]]'' <blockquote> I even recall cases where someone (not a 'Top 10/25' - contributor) posted an answer; a contributor with many answers/solutions to his name posted after him, used a different link, but it led to exactly the same solution that first mentioned had already provided, and of course the OP chose 'mr. Big Shot's' answer ...... I've also noticed that many contributors have a huge amount of answers/solutions to their name, that they don't even 'deserve'. But again: why maintain this scoring system, what purpose does it serve? </blockquote> There will not be labels "Top x Contributor" anymore. There will only be ranks. These ranks will be an indicator of kudos and how much time is spent in the forum combined. Also roles, like moderator and administrator will not be visual, but they will be on a user's profile I think. However since this is the first run coming at the end of the month, these can be requested to be changed. Two examples you may have seen in the preview are "Returning Visitor" and "Sumo Contributor". I do think that it may address the leader board, 'top' label issue, but will not change the what is mentioned here as a deserving score. I would really like to get more feedback on this to change and hold accountable some of the moderation done there. Some objective motivations of a gamification system however are that it can motivate improvement and can be a form of recognition. I am thinking a leader board is not the solution to this. There are other ways that were suggested that could serve a similar purpose: *Customized Badges *Tags and Labels *Swag for participating on more busy forum visiting days I do not know what impact the later will have, however there are some consistent positive feedback about badges. The cons of the leader board mentioned here are that they promote unhealthy competition, a lack of common sense and a lack of common courtesy. I do not think this is what support or helping out another user is about. As a user I want the best answer, and I want to be able to find it quickly, and I work well with those with the opposite of these negative affects. I am not saying every user is going to be nice or courteous,'' but I think that it is important to be a role model with the qualities of sincerity, empathy and create a space of mutual respect and mutual purpose between user and helper. '' I do not want to call the kettle black, however I would love to hear more thoughts of how we can recognize contributors, and still encourage a healthy, safe place to give feedback and have a clear definition or common language for the intentions behind helping Mozilla Firefox Users. So I have a few main questions: * What are some of the situations that we can address to keep the space safe for all users? * What are some compromises we can come up with for showing healthy recognition? Sometimes more than a thank you is nice or sometimes it is just enough? *What do we do with kudos? -With good intentions, Rachel

    Modified by guigs on

  3. Happy112
    Happy112 226 posts
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    Thank you,   Rachel.

    I think the support forum is a safe place for everybody;   of course you may expect the occasional verbal abuse from a frustrated user,   which   (to me)   is very understandable in most cases.
    As for recognotion and kudos : I can only speak for myself, but when an answer is marked as 'solved',   or when an user says "Thank you'",   that's when I'm happy   (no pun intended).

    Nomore 'Top-something' contributor,   nomore mentioning of the number of posts :   that's about   quantity,   while it should be about   quality . Contributors are there because they want to help users ; that should be all the motivation they need.

    Thank you, &nbsp; Rachel. I think the support forum is a safe place for everybody; &nbsp; of course you may expect the occasional verbal abuse from a frustrated user, &nbsp; which &nbsp; (to me) &nbsp; is very understandable in most cases.<BR> As for recognotion and kudos : I can only speak for myself, but when an answer is marked as 'solved', &nbsp; or when an user says "Thank you'", &nbsp; that's when I'm happy &nbsp; (no pun intended).<BR> Nomore 'Top-something' contributor, &nbsp; nomore mentioning of the number of posts : &nbsp; that's about &nbsp; ''quantity'', &nbsp; while it should be about &nbsp; '' quality'' . Contributors are there because they want to help users ; that should be all the motivation they need.
  4. vesper
    vesper 1182 posts
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    Thank you for sharing your opinions and ideas, Happy112/Amy!

    It is VERY important to us as your helpers to make sure you are all feeling good while using SUMO to help others. We also need data to know how our community is doing and whether there are any trends we should be paying particular attention to. It's a balancing act of sorts :-).

    Before I chime in with my thoughts, I'll let others on the forum read through the thread and present their views - but I do fully support your voice in trying to improve "the mechanics" behind our community.

    Have a great weekend! Michał

    Thank you for sharing your opinions and ideas, Happy112/Amy! It is VERY important to us as your helpers to make sure you are all feeling good while using SUMO to help others. We also need data to know how our community is doing and whether there are any trends we should be paying particular attention to. It's a balancing act of sorts :-). Before I chime in with my thoughts, I'll let others on the forum read through the thread and present their views - but I do fully support your voice in trying to improve "the mechanics" behind our community. Have a great weekend! Michał
  5. Andrew
    Andrew 1232 posts
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    Thanks for bringing this up! This definitely creates a battlefield for others to compete and become in the top. We should never choose quantity over quality, our main purpose is to take care of the user.

    As mentioned by Rachel, with the Lithium migration, many of these "issues/problems" will be resolved in that platform.

    If you ever see something that is marked as solution but credit should be placed to another contributor, please report and let us moderators know. The key is to this is being honest, to yourself, and to other contributors.

    Thanks for bringing this up! This definitely creates a battlefield for others to compete and become in the top. We should never choose quantity over quality, our main purpose is to take care of the user. As mentioned by Rachel, with the Lithium migration, many of these "issues/problems" will be resolved in that platform. If you ever see something that is marked as solution but credit should be placed to another contributor, please report and let us moderators know. The key is to this is being honest, to yourself, and to other contributors.
  6. Scribe
    Scribe 60 posts
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    Happy112 makes some good and valid points in her impassioned post!

    As far as I can tell, Kudos = Helpful, which already seems to confuse some users. I have often seen the OP post something like 'thank you that fixed my problem,' and then go on to mark the answer as Helpful rather than Solved. Do we really need to over-complicate it? A simple 'Please mark the answer that best resolved your problem as Solved,' would in my view, avoid any ambiguity and improve the apparent Solved rate.

    Straying off topic - but still related to the Solved rate: I have long thought that it would be very useful if users were given the opportunity to indicate their approximate computer skill level when asking a question - something along the lines of Novice, Intermediate, Advanced or Coder. That way we could better tailor the difficulty of the answer we give. I suspect that many of the questions which appear to have been ignored after we have answered them, could be because users are simply overwhelmed by an answer that they don't understand.

    Happy112 makes some good and valid points in her impassioned post! As far as I can tell, Kudos = Helpful, which already seems to confuse some users. I have often seen the OP post something like 'thank you that fixed my problem,' and then go on to mark the answer as Helpful rather than Solved. Do we really need to over-complicate it? A simple 'Please mark the answer that best resolved your problem as Solved,' would in my view, avoid any ambiguity and improve the apparent Solved rate. Straying off topic - but still related to the Solved rate: I have long thought that it would be very useful if users were given the opportunity to indicate their approximate computer skill level when asking a question - something along the lines of Novice, Intermediate, Advanced or Coder. That way we could better tailor the difficulty of the answer we give. I suspect that many of the questions which appear to have been ignored after we have answered them, could be because users are simply overwhelmed by an answer that they don't understand.

    Modified by Scribe on

  7. Happy112
    Happy112 226 posts
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    Andrew said

    If you ever see something that is marked as solution but credit should be placed to another contributor, please report and let us moderators know.

    Good point   ! I told Rachel in a PM that, in my opinion, no longer mentioning moderators on the support forum may not be such a good idea :   quite often the OP marks the wrong post as   'Chosen Solution',   and you just can't get them to rectify it.   That's when you need to be able to turn to a moderator and get him to mark the right post ,   so that others will know.

    ''Andrew [[#post-71368|said]]'' <blockquote> If you ever see something that is marked as solution but credit should be placed to another contributor, please report and let us moderators know. </blockquote> Good point &nbsp; ! I told Rachel in a PM that, in my opinion, no longer mentioning moderators on the support forum may not be such a good idea : &nbsp; quite often the OP marks the wrong post as &nbsp; 'Chosen Solution', &nbsp; and you just can't get them to rectify it. &nbsp; That's when you need to be able to turn to a moderator and get him to mark the right post , &nbsp; so that others will know.
  8. Happy112
    Happy112 226 posts
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    Scribe said

    Straying off topic - but still related to the Solved rate: I have long thought that it would be very useful if users were given the opportunity to indicate their approximate computer skill level when asking a question - something along the lines of Novice, Intermediate, Advanced or Coder. That way we could better tailor the difficulty of the answer we give. I suspect that many of the questions which appear to have been ignored after we have answered them, could be because users are simply overwhelmed by an answer that they don't understand.

    A very good point as well   ! This is another thing I've told Rachel about  : 'Got emails or PMs from OPs asking for help,   because they couldn't make head or tails from the answers they were given. I would plead with some fellow-contributors to please keep it as simple as possible, rather than to come up with endless lists of   'do this; then do that' (which sometimes is inevitable). Some OPs even marked a post as 'Solved', and when I asked them why, they said that they were too embarrassed to admit that they didn't   'get'   what was suggested to them.

    ''Scribe [[#post-71369|said]]'' <blockquote> Straying off topic - but still related to the Solved rate: I have long thought that it would be very useful if users were given the opportunity to indicate their approximate computer skill level when asking a question - something along the lines of Novice, Intermediate, Advanced or Coder. That way we could better tailor the difficulty of the answer we give. I suspect that many of the questions which appear to have been ignored after we have answered them, could be because users are simply overwhelmed by an answer that they don't understand. </blockquote> A very good point as well &nbsp; ! This is another thing I've told Rachel about : 'Got emails or PMs from OPs asking for help, &nbsp; because they couldn't make head or tails from the answers they were given. I would plead with some fellow-contributors to please keep it as simple as possible, rather than to come up with endless lists of &nbsp; 'do this; then do that' (which sometimes is inevitable). Some OPs even marked a post as 'Solved', and when I asked them why, they said that they were too embarrassed to admit that they didn't &nbsp; 'get' &nbsp; what was suggested to them.

    Modified by Happy112 on

  9. Happy112
    Happy112 226 posts
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    https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1208139

    No comment (just a heavy sigh ..... )

    https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1208139 No comment (just a heavy sigh ..... )
  10. McCoy
    McCoy 160 posts
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    Happy112 said

    https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1208139
    No comment (just a heavy sigh ..... )

    Same here (but it's like talking to a brick wall .... )

    https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1259730

    ''Happy112 [[#post-73577|said]]'' <blockquote> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1208139<BR> No comment (just a heavy sigh ..... ) </blockquote> Same here (but it's like talking to a brick wall .... ) https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1259730
  11. Wesley Branton
    Wesley Branton 165 posts
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    Happy112 said

    I even recall cases where someone   (not a   'Top 10/25' - contributor)   posted an answer;   a contributor with many answers/solutions to his name posted after him,   used a different link,  but it led to exactly the same solution that first mentioned had already provided,   and of course the   OP  chose   'mr. Big Shot's'   answer......

    This is a HUGE issue on the forums. There are a lot of contributors here that constantly. I've been involved in multiple threads in which it's flooded with two, three or sometimes four replies that direct the user to the exact same solution. I see this behaviour in many of the top 10 and top 25 contributors here.

    Despite being a top 25 or 10 contributor, I'd like to think that I'm not part of the problem, although I'm almost certain I've done it on multiple occasions in my early start here when I was very much focusing on quantity over quality. Now, in most cases, I'll only post to a thread if I have a different solution or something to add to an existing reply. Usually I will say, "in addition to what XXXXXX suggested..." or something along those lines so that I don't step on the other contributor's toes.

    Having a bunch of contributors all jumping on threads just for the sake of increasing a number is not beneficial to the users seeking help and it hurts the morale of the other contributors. I know it's impacted how I answer questions here on the forums recently. There are some threads that I would have picked previously, but I'm not longer taking those types of threads because I know that people will just jump on top of me, rending my input essentially useless. There have been multiple times when I've taken extended breaks from contributing here for that exact reason (not my 2017 absence, that was school).

    Another issue (is this may not be entirely on topic) that I've come across recently here are contributors who will just completely contradict what other contributors have already posted or outright post in a reply that "XXXXX is wrong".

    While I see that, in some cases, this may be necessary, it's a practice that I absolutely hate. Not only does it hurt morale, it also damaged the reputation of fellow contributors. We are supposed to be a team here at SUMO and I think that this practice completely goes against that idea.

    I've spoken to other contributors who complain of the same thing and I've also contacted the contributors that are frequently doing this. I know that I'm human and, like everyone else here, I can be wrong. However, rather than seeing someone posting that I'm wrong and having them completely break the trust that the user has in me, I'd prefer a PM. I have no problem editing questions and I have a fairly quick response time in most situations.

    Generally, if I see something that I believe is wrong, I'll PM the person that posted it. Then, if it's not corrected, then I'll post something on the thread because that's helpful to the user.

    To be brutally honest, I could name quite a few frequent contributors here that engage in the practices that I've mentioned. I'm not going to list them though because that's not what being a team is about. I try to contact them privately in a nice way, in hopes that they will improve. Although, I've definitely had other contributors (even moderators) say negative things about other contributors to me.

    But I digress.

    At the end of the day, I don't think that the blame for anything I've described above can be attributed entirely to the "scoring system". In fact, I think that the system is quite good. When you are volunteering, all you get is the satisfaction of knowing that you are helping people. I think that the scoring system does a pretty good job of emotionally and mentally rewarding the top contributors.

    It's also quite good for things like resumes and stuff like that. I've mentioned it in job interviews before and I think it's even on my resume (although I'm not sure because it's been a while since I've had to use it). Generally, it looks quite good to the employer and it's actually be a decent talking point during the interview.

    I think that the primary issue is just contributors who want to pump up their big egos with stats and numbers, but that doesn't come entirely down to the scoring system itself. It's just the way that some people will behave.

    The only thing that I would like to change about the scoring system (and I know it's coming) is to hide the "top 10" or "top 25" status from the threads. If you want to have it on the profile page, fine, but it shouldn't be under the contributor's name when they post replies because it could potential cause users to disregard contributors that they may wrongly consider to be "not as good as XXXXXX".

    But that's just my 2 cents.

    ''Happy112 [[#post-71342|said]]'' <blockquote>I even recall cases where someone &nbsp; (not a &nbsp; 'Top 10/25' - contributor) &nbsp; posted an answer; &nbsp; a contributor with many answers/solutions to his name posted after him, &nbsp; used a different link,&nbsp; but it led to exactly the same solution that first mentioned had already provided, &nbsp; and of course the &nbsp; OP&nbsp; chose &nbsp; 'mr. Big Shot's' &nbsp; answer......</blockquote> This is a '''HUGE''' issue on the forums. There are a lot of contributors here that constantly. I've been involved in multiple threads in which it's flooded with two, three or sometimes four replies that direct the user to the exact same solution. I see this behaviour in many of the top 10 and top 25 contributors here. Despite being a top 25 or 10 contributor, I'd like to think that I'm not part of the problem, although I'm almost certain I've done it on multiple occasions in my early start here when I was very much focusing on quantity over quality. Now, in most cases, I'll only post to a thread if I have a different solution or something to add to an existing reply. Usually I will say, "in addition to what XXXXXX suggested..." or something along those lines so that I don't step on the other contributor's toes. Having a bunch of contributors all jumping on threads just for the sake of increasing a number is not beneficial to the users seeking help and it hurts the morale of the other contributors. I know it's impacted how I answer questions here on the forums recently. There are some threads that I would have picked previously, but I'm not longer taking those types of threads because I know that people will just jump on top of me, rending my input essentially useless. There have been multiple times when I've taken extended breaks from contributing here for that exact reason (not my 2017 absence, that was school). Another issue (is this may not be entirely on topic) that I've come across recently here are contributors who will just completely contradict what other contributors have already posted or outright post in a reply that "XXXXX is wrong". While I see that, in some cases, this may be necessary, it's a practice that I absolutely hate. Not only does it hurt morale, it also damaged the reputation of fellow contributors. We are supposed to be a team here at SUMO and I think that this practice completely goes against that idea. I've spoken to other contributors who complain of the same thing and I've also contacted the contributors that are frequently doing this. I know that I'm human and, like everyone else here, I can be wrong. However, rather than seeing someone posting that I'm wrong and having them completely break the trust that the user has in me, I'd prefer a PM. I have no problem editing questions and I have a fairly quick response time in most situations. Generally, if I see something that I believe is wrong, I'll PM the person that posted it. Then, if it's not corrected, then I'll post something on the thread because that's helpful to the user. To be brutally honest, I could name quite a few frequent contributors here that engage in the practices that I've mentioned. I'm not going to list them though because that's not what being a team is about. I try to contact them privately in a nice way, in hopes that they will improve. Although, I've definitely had other contributors (even moderators) say negative things about other contributors to me. But I digress. At the end of the day, I don't think that the blame for anything I've described above can be attributed entirely to the "scoring system". In fact, I think that the system is quite good. When you are volunteering, all you get is the satisfaction of knowing that you are helping people. I think that the scoring system does a pretty good job of emotionally and mentally rewarding the top contributors. It's also quite good for things like resumes and stuff like that. I've mentioned it in job interviews before and I think it's even on my resume (although I'm not sure because it's been a while since I've had to use it). Generally, it looks quite good to the employer and it's actually be a decent talking point during the interview. I think that the primary issue is just contributors who want to pump up their big egos with stats and numbers, but that doesn't come entirely down to the scoring system itself. It's just the way that some people will behave. The only thing that I would like to change about the scoring system (and I know it's coming) is to hide the "top 10" or "top 25" status from the threads. If you want to have it on the profile page, fine, but it shouldn't be under the contributor's name when they post replies because it could potential cause users to disregard contributors that they may wrongly consider to be "not as good as XXXXXX". But that's just my 2 cents.
  12. McCoy
    McCoy 160 posts
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    @ Wesley Branton :

    Your "2 cents" are worth a million  !

    Thank you, thank you, thank you !

    @ Wesley Branton : Your "2 cents" are worth a million ! Thank you, thank you, thank you !
  13. Scribe
    Scribe 60 posts
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    For what it's worth, I too agree with Wesley.

    Perhaps there should be something in the contributor guidelines to the effect of: Contributors must always allow the OP to reply to an answer before posting another response. This is because double posting is likely to confuse the OP, and demoralise the original contributor since their answer may now seem pointless. The only exception being in the rare case where a totally wrong or potentially damaging answer has been posted.

    Of course there are always occasions when two contributors inadvertently post at the same time, but that is unavoidable and not relevant to the above issue.

    For what it's worth, I too agree with Wesley. Perhaps there should be something in the contributor guidelines to the effect of: ''Contributors must always allow the OP to reply to an answer before posting another response. This is because double posting is likely to confuse the OP, and demoralise the original contributor since their answer may now seem pointless. The only exception being in the rare case where a totally wrong or potentially damaging answer has been posted.'' Of course there are always occasions when two contributors inadvertently post at the same time, but that is unavoidable and not relevant to the above issue.
  14. Wesley Branton
    Wesley Branton 165 posts
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    Scribe said

    Perhaps there should be something in the contributor guidelines to the effect of: Contributors must always allow the OP to reply to an answer before posting another response. This is because double posting is likely to confuse the OP, and demoralise the original contributor since their answer may now seem pointless.

    I have no problem with other contributors posting a response before the OP responds. It just has to be a different solution to what has already been posted.

    If something else is posted, it can help the OP and reduce the amount of time that it takes to get the problem fixed. But it starts to confuse the OP when it's something that's the same as a post above.

    Of course there are always occasions when two contributors inadvertently post at the same time, but that is unavoidable and not relevant to the above issue.

    Yes, this is true. The banner to let you know that someone is posting doesn't always seem to work.

    ''Scribe [[#post-76055|said]]'' <blockquote>Perhaps there should be something in the contributor guidelines to the effect of: ''Contributors must always allow the OP to reply to an answer before posting another response. This is because double posting is likely to confuse the OP, and demoralise the original contributor since their answer may now seem pointless.</blockquote> I have no problem with other contributors posting a response before the OP responds. It just has to be a <u>different</u> solution to what has already been posted. If something else is posted, it can help the OP and reduce the amount of time that it takes to get the problem fixed. But it starts to confuse the OP when it's something that's the same as a post above. <blockquote>Of course there are always occasions when two contributors inadvertently post at the same time, but that is unavoidable and not relevant to the above issue.</blockquote> Yes, this is true. The banner to let you know that someone is posting doesn't always seem to work.
  15. Paul
    Paul 1360 posts
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    Hi

    Thank you for bringing this important topic up for discussion.

    Looking at it I see two issues: The "status" information displayed to the users that we are helping and the community health metrics.

    Looking firstly at the information alongside our names that is displayed to users, I think there is some worth in the user that is askingt he question knowing how experianced a person is and this has sometimes helped resolve more challenging situations.

    That said, I do agree that this this needs to change. I would like to see the "top 10" category go and there just being a top 25 marker with the "stats" just displayed in the contributors user profile.

    The community health metrics is a bit more complicated. There used to be a better set of tools prior to the migration-that-we-shall-not-mention, but this was lost when we moved back. It allowed ccontributors and staff to select any time period and any product or area of contribution and see some really useful data. Sadly we are now stuck with a fixed 90 days - so at present (for example) forum stats are off kilter due to the add-on apocalypse. If the old form could be restored we would have good actionable community data that would help SUMO as a whole.

    I do not like elitisim of contribution, but some measure of community health is important, not only for Mozilla, but also for ourselves. I personally like to keep at a regular level - it keeps my contribution to Mozilla consistant over a period of time - and such stats help me to do that. I know I will probably never be "number 1", and feel a little uncomfortable being in the top 10 - top 25 is plenty for me.

    I hope that if the changes mentioned above were implemented things would improve, not only to remove any elitism but also to broaden and grow core contributors to SUMO.

    I hope this helps.

    Hi Thank you for bringing this important topic up for discussion. Looking at it I see two issues: The "status" information displayed to the users that we are helping and the community health metrics. Looking firstly at the information alongside our names that is displayed to users, I think there is some worth in the user that is askingt he question knowing how experianced a person is and this has sometimes helped resolve more challenging situations. That said, I do agree that this this needs to change. I would like to see the "top 10" category go and there just being a top 25 marker with the "stats" just displayed in the contributors user profile. The community health metrics is a bit more complicated. There used to be a better set of tools prior to the migration-that-we-shall-not-mention, but this was lost when we moved back. It allowed ccontributors and staff to select any time period and any product or area of contribution and see some really useful data. Sadly we are now stuck with a fixed 90 days - so at present (for example) forum stats are off kilter due to the add-on apocalypse. If the old form could be restored we would have good actionable community data that would help SUMO as a whole. I do not like elitisim of contribution, but some measure of community health is important, not only for Mozilla, but also for ourselves. I personally like to keep at a regular level - it keeps my contribution to Mozilla consistant over a period of time - and such stats help me to do that. I know I will probably never be "number 1", and feel a little uncomfortable being in the top 10 - top 25 is plenty for me. I hope that if the changes mentioned above were implemented things would improve, not only to remove any elitism but also to broaden and grow core contributors to SUMO. I hope this helps.
  16. McCoy
    McCoy 160 posts
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    Again : "Top contributor" (10, 25, or whatever number) is only about quantity  !

    When someone were to post ten times a day something like "Thank you" - he'd be a "Top 10 contributor" in no time.

    I want that whole "scoring system" (including mentioning how many Chosen Solutions one has to his/her name) gone  !

    It doesn't serve any purpose - only sends the wrong message to (some) users.

    Again : "Top contributor" (10, 25, or whatever number) is only about ''quantity'' ! When someone were to post ten times a day something like "Thank you" - he'd be a "Top 10 contributor" in no time. I want that whole "scoring system" (including mentioning how many Chosen Solutions one has to his/her name) gone ! It doesn't serve any purpose - only sends the wrong message to (some) users.
  17. Wesley Branton
    Wesley Branton 165 posts
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    Seburo said

    That said, I do agree that this this needs to change. I would like to see the "top 10" category go and there just being a top 25 marker with the "stats" just displayed in the contributors user profile.

    I'd prefer to see the "top 25" category called "frequent contributor" or something along those lines instead. "Top 25" implies that their answers may be better than others, which is quite often not the case in the quantity over quality nature of the forums.

    "Frequent contributor" is more fairly representing that the contributor is simply more active on the forum, not necessarily that their answers are of better quality than anyone else.

    ''Seburo [[#post-76057|said]]'' <blockquote>That said, I do agree that this this needs to change. I would like to see the "top 10" category go and there just being a top 25 marker with the "stats" just displayed in the contributors user profile.</blockquote> I'd prefer to see the "top 25" category called "frequent contributor" or something along those lines instead. "Top 25" implies that their answers may be better than others, which is quite often not the case in the ''quantity over quality'' nature of the forums. "Frequent contributor" is more fairly representing that the contributor is simply more active on the forum, not necessarily that their answers are of better quality than anyone else.
  18. Wesley Branton
    Wesley Branton 165 posts
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    McCoy said

    When someone were to post ten times a day something like "Thank you" - he'd be a "Top 10 contributor" in no time. I want that whole "scoring system" (including mentioning how many Chosen Solutions one has to his/her name) gone  !

    Would a good compromise be making it so that only contributors can see the scoring system via a dashboard?

    I think the scoring system is important, although I'd like to see it factor in more than just quantity of posts. I'd like to see it take into account things like:

    • Length of posts.
    • Frequency of canned response usage.
    • Solutions to answers ratio.
    • The point at which a contributor joins a thread (like are they there at the start or do they join only after many have already posted?).
    • Does the contributor stay in a thread until completed? (Do they post a reply and give up or do they see the thread through until it's solved?).

    Adding factors other than just quantity of posting would more accurately judge the quality of the contributor. Allowing the users to confidentially rate contributors individually could also be a factor.

    Before I came to this forum, I was the top contributor on Ask.com's technology Q&A section. That scoring system worked differently because it was rare to see people who spammed the same copy-paste or poor quality answer (like the infamous "have you tried turning it off and on again?" response) in every thread at the top of the leaderboard. You can get better results with a better algorithm.

    The scoring system can be beneficial to personal growth. When I first came here, I used the canned responses a lot. Then another contributor here told me that I use the canned responses too frequently. So I adapted and now I rarely use the canned response. There are some frequent parts that I will copy and paste together to get a good response, but most of my replies are personally typed in each situation.

    My point is that because someone provided me with feedback about my responses, I grew and now I feel I'm a better contributor than I was at the start. If there was a scoring system that helped users to improve their behaviour on the forums, it could be a great thing for the community.

    ''McCoy [[#post-76058|said]]'' <blockquote>When someone were to post ten times a day something like "Thank you" - he'd be a "Top 10 contributor" in no time. I want that whole "scoring system" (including mentioning how many Chosen Solutions one has to his/her name) gone !</blockquote> Would a good compromise be making it so that only contributors can see the scoring system via a dashboard? I think the scoring system is important, although I'd like to see it factor in more than just quantity of posts. I'd like to see it take into account things like: *Length of posts. *Frequency of canned response usage. *Solutions to answers ratio. *The point at which a contributor joins a thread (like are they there at the start or do they join only after many have already posted?). *Does the contributor stay in a thread until completed? (Do they post a reply and give up or do they see the thread through until it's solved?). Adding factors other than just quantity of posting would more accurately judge the quality of the contributor. Allowing the users to confidentially rate contributors individually could also be a factor. Before I came to this forum, I was the top contributor on Ask.com's technology Q&A section. That scoring system worked differently because it was rare to see people who spammed the same copy-paste or poor quality answer (like the infamous "have you tried turning it off and on again?" response) in every thread at the top of the leaderboard. You can get better results with a better algorithm. The scoring system can be beneficial to personal growth. When I first came here, I used the canned responses a lot. Then another contributor here told me that I use the canned responses too frequently. So I adapted and now I rarely use the canned response. There are some frequent parts that I will copy and paste together to get a good response, but most of my replies are personally typed in each situation. My point is that because someone provided me with feedback about my responses, I grew and now I feel I'm a better contributor than I was at the start. If there was a scoring system that helped users to improve their behaviour on the forums, it could be a great thing for the community.
  19. McCoy
    McCoy 160 posts
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    When a contributor provided an answer that solved the OP's problem, then of course that post should be marked as Chosen Solution. And everybody will be able to see who solved the problem (n case one needs an "ego boost").

    I think that everybody here knows that "Happy112" (the one who started this thread) = "McCoy"; since I started this thread, my feelings/thoughts about the subject haven't changed ......

    BTW : there's a different thread about the Chosen Solution and Helpful buttons :

    https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/forums/contributors/713316#post-75287

    When a contributor provided an answer that solved the OP's problem, then of course that post should be marked as Chosen Solution. And ''everybody'' will be able to see ''who'' solved the problem (n case one needs an "ego boost"). I think that everybody here knows that "Happy112" (the one who started this thread) = "McCoy"; since I started this thread, my feelings/thoughts about the subject haven't changed ...... BTW : there's a different thread about the Chosen Solution and Helpful buttons : https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/forums/contributors/713316#post-75287

    Modified by McCoy on

  20. Scribe
    Scribe 60 posts
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    Wesley Branton said

    Scribe said
    Perhaps there should be something in the contributor guidelines to the effect of: Contributors must always allow the OP to reply to an answer before posting another response. This is because double posting is likely to confuse the OP, and demoralise the original contributor since their answer may now seem pointless.

    I have no problem with other contributors posting a response before the OP responds. It just has to be a different solution to what has already been posted.

    If something else is posted, it can help the OP and reduce the amount of time that it takes to get the problem fixed. But it starts to confuse the OP when it's something that's the same as a post above.

    Agreed in principle, BUT, I strongly suspect that would open the door to answers that are no more than a thinly veiled copy of the original one, thereby defeating the object.

    ''Wesley Branton [[#post-76056|said]]'' <blockquote> ''Scribe [[#post-76055|said]]'' <blockquote>Perhaps there should be something in the contributor guidelines to the effect of: ''Contributors must always allow the OP to reply to an answer before posting another response. This is because double posting is likely to confuse the OP, and demoralise the original contributor since their answer may now seem pointless.</blockquote> I have no problem with other contributors posting a response before the OP responds. It just has to be a <u>different</u> solution to what has already been posted. If something else is posted, it can help the OP and reduce the amount of time that it takes to get the problem fixed. But it starts to confuse the OP when it's something that's the same as a post above. </blockquote> Agreed in principle, BUT, I strongly suspect that would open the door to answers that are no more than a thinly veiled copy of the original one, thereby defeating the object.
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