SUMO community discussions

<rant>Tags useless for contributors, with equally useless topics (from a Search point of view)

  • 5 Replies
  • Last reply by Kadir Topal
  1. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    I wonder if anyone else shares this viewpoint ?
    I will post this now and look up and fill in the links later. edit 1, most links added.

    At one time it seemed to me tags would be deprecated [a][b], and a good topics system would replace them.

    A STORY / Question
    (Consider yourself stories for other products / platforms etc. e.g. Webmaker, Thunderbird Fx OS, & Mac.s)

    1. I am a contributor. I wish to answer questions on mobile phones.
      • How do I find such questions ?
        With great difficulty.
      • Do I benefit from the new features of the improved Contributors Forum  ?
        Mostly No. (Only once you have found and answered a question.)
    2. I am a contributor. I wish to answer questions on a specific topic.
      I give an example under with Crashes
    • TAGs are now needed for the improved UI but only two are exposed offtopic and escalate. XXXXX
      Tags are of little use to contributors
      • Tag offtopic covers two cases and it is not yet sorted out how it should be used in practice [T2]
      • Tag escalate covered several cases and is being revamped,
        it misses the 24 hr response target[E24]
        and the other functions or additional tags are not yet thought through. [T4]
        • Update Jan 2015. Escalation changed to have target of 72 hours on answering questions. Note from KPI steady decline over course of the year of % answered with both 24 & 72 hours.
      • No longer searchable from the Contributors new AAQ UI .
        Forcing contributors to use the advanced search is a major retrograde step.
    • SEARCH lets be blunt advanced search is useful but only as as a last resort.
      We should not be forcing more contributors to use this. It needs fixing. It needs improving.
      • There is currently some bug / glitch with it. It does not even give the results expected ! /forums/contributors/709852
      • The current improved UI will force even more contributors to use it. (Or maybe result in not looking for and answer questions) e.g. for other products, tags, & older questions .
      • It is overdue for improvement ( Bug 794083 - add query_string support to advanced search )
        • Update Jan 20115. Bug duplicated and resolved late 2014. Necessitated by prior removal of more Google indexing and so breaking the Google Search of AAQ suport forum. Advanced search still a very poor option with confusing pointless clutter & duplicated checkboxes.

    EXAMPLE

    If I search the forum manually by eye, scrolling for recent threads about crashes the most recent five I see are

    1. Firefox crashes /questions/982389
    2. Firefox crashes /questions/982381
    3. Firefox crashes /questions/982336
    4. Adobe flash plugin keeps crashing. Please help! /questions/968190
    5. Websites with flash content are always slow or crash the plugin. Is flash player or firefox? IE and Chrome do not experience this problem.All plugins up to date /questions/979912
    6. ( how is that firefox doesn't restore session anymore?? /questions/981894 ) {Crash mentioned in the post

    Not one of those is tagged as a crash. So advanced search for tag crash is pointless.
    Also the two Flash crashes are not tagged with anything related to Flash.

    • We do have the deprecated ? topics
      (Look at /questions/dashboard/metrics read Bug 916211 - Fix the topics graph on the questions dashboard. )
    • I note that includes
      one mentioning crashing but would probably be a catch all if it was not empty
      a specific Firefox crashes but the topic is again empty.
      possibly; brand new topics suitable for webmaker, such as X-Ray Goggles
      Note the tool tip only provides the full description if the topic is not empty.

    Of course should you wish to search for ( "Flash Crash" ) or maybe ( "Flash Player" AND Crash) you will be disappointed, such facilities do not exist, neither does any facility to search thread titles only.
    I know others have expressed an interest in these improvements or have resorted to Google searches XXXXX

    P.S. (Modified by John99 on January 5, 2014 11:19:50 PM BST) I wonder how the new about to be implemented Needsinfo will be implemented ? tag, topic,or UI option ?


    • P.P.S. (4thFeb ~J99)
      • A Related thread
        Allow Users To Create Tags /forums/contributors/709957
      • The undocumented Needs Info does use a tag, and creates and removes it from within post replies.
        Good implementation method
    • P.P.S. (22nd Feb ~J99)

    (Further edits & updates Modified by John99 on February 22, 2014 11:56:34 AM BST )

    • PPS (14th Jan 2015 ~J99)

    Updated & Added comments as additional bullet points about advanced search & tags. A related thread "I need a way to tag support threads." /forums/contributors/711019

    I wonder if anyone else shares this viewpoint ? <br />'''I will post this now and look up and fill in the links later.''' edit 1, most links added. At one time it seemed to me tags would be deprecated <sup>[[https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/forums/support-forum-contributors/709068#post-51630 a]][[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=810945 b]]</sup>, and a good topics system would replace them. A STORY / Question <br />(Consider yourself stories for other products / platforms etc. e.g. Webmaker, Thunderbird Fx OS, & Mac.s) # I am a contributor. I wish to answer questions on mobile phones. #*How do I find such questions ? <br /> With great difficulty. #* Do I benefit from the new features of the improved Contributors Forum ? <br /> Mostly No. (Only once you have found and answered a question.) #I am a contributor. I wish to answer questions on a specific topic. <br /> I give an example under with Crashes ----------- * TAGs are now needed for the improved UI but only two are exposed offtopic and escalate. XXXXX <br /> Tags are of little use to contributors ** Tag ''offtopic'' covers two cases and it is not yet sorted out how it should be used in practice <sup>[[/forums/contributors/709846#post-56162 T2]]</sup> ** Tag ''escalate'' covered several cases and is being revamped, <br />it misses the 24 hr response target<sup>[[/forums/contributors/709846#post-56091 E24]]</sup> <br />and the other functions or additional tags are not yet thought through. <sup>[[/forums/contributors/709846#post-56067 T4]]</sup> *** <sub>Update Jan 2015. Escalation changed to have target of 72 hours on answering questions. Note from KPI steady decline over course of the year of % answered with both 24 & 72 hours. </sub> ** No longer searchable from the Contributors new AAQ UI . <br /> Forcing contributors to use the ''advanced'' search is a major retrograde step. *TOPICs are useless for contributors ** They are not easily searchable. There is AFAIK no method to search by topic. (Other than maybe a Google string search.) ** The topic used seem illogical, even if they were searchable. <br />Dozens of Topics but only a handful are used <br /> <sup>Look at[/questions/dashboard/metrics] & note ''[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=916211 Bug 916211 - Fix the topics graph on the questions dashboard.]'' </sub> *SEARCH lets be blunt advanced search is useful but only as as a last resort.<br />We should not be forcing more contributors to use this. It needs fixing. It needs improving. ** There is currently some bug / glitch with it. It does not even give the results expected ! [/forums/contributors/709852] ** The current improved UI will force even more contributors to use it. (Or maybe result in not looking for and answer questions) e.g. for other products, tags, & older questions . **It is overdue for improvement <sub>( [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794083 Bug 794083 - add query_string support to advanced search] )</sub> *** Update Jan 20115. <sub> Bug duplicated and resolved late 2014. Necessitated by prior removal of more Google indexing and so breaking the Google Search of AAQ suport forum. Advanced search still a very poor option with confusing pointless clutter & duplicated checkboxes. </sub> --------- EXAMPLE If I search the forum manually by eye, scrolling for recent threads about crashes the most recent five I see are # Firefox crashes [/questions/982389] # Firefox crashes [/questions/982381] # Firefox crashes [/questions/982336] # Adobe flash plugin keeps crashing. Please help! [/questions/968190] # Websites with flash content are always slow or crash the plugin. Is flash player or firefox? IE and Chrome do not experience this problem.All plugins up to date [/questions/979912] #( how is that firefox doesn't restore session anymore?? [/questions/981894] ) {Crash mentioned in the post Not one of those is tagged as a crash. So advanced search for tag ''crash'' is pointless. <br />Also the two Flash crashes are not tagged with anything related to Flash. * We do have the deprecated ? topics <br /><sup>(Look at [/questions/dashboard/metrics] read [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=916211#c3 Bug 916211 - Fix the topics graph on the questions dashboard.] )</sup> * I note that includes <br />one mentioning ''crashing'' but would probably be a catch all if it was not empty <br /> a specific ''Firefox crashes'' but the topic is again empty. <br />possibly; brand new topics suitable for webmaker, such as ''X-Ray Goggles'' <br />Note the tool tip only provides the full description if the topic is not empty. Of course should you wish to search for ( "Flash Crash" ) or maybe ( "Flash Player" AND Crash) you will be disappointed, such facilities do not exist, neither does any facility to search thread titles only. <br />I know others have expressed an interest in these improvements or have resorted to Google searches XXXXX ----------- P.S. (Modified by John99 on January 5, 2014 11:19:50 PM BST) I wonder how the new about to be implemented ''Needsinfo'' will be implemented ? tag, topic,or UI option ? *[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=950062 Bug 950062 - Implement "needs info" UI ] *P.P.S. (4thFeb ~J99) ** A Related thread <br />''Allow Users To Create Tags '' [/forums/contributors/709957] ** The undocumented Needs Info does use a tag, and creates and removes it from within post replies. <br /> Good implementation method *P.P.S. (22nd Feb ~J99) ** Webmaker topics also exist, we have only jut got an admin again for Webmaker a few days ago. **Thundirbird may be causing issues now see for example<br />''Thunderbird Questions now in Forum'' [https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/forums/contributors/710031?last=57675#post-57675] (Further edits & updates Modified by John99 on February 22, 2014 11:56:34 AM BST ) *PPS (14th Jan 2015 ~J99) Updated & Added comments as additional bullet points about advanced search & tags. A related thread "''I need a way to tag support threads.''" [/forums/contributors/711019]

    Modified by John99 on

  2. cor-el
    cor-el 1494 posts
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    A further problem with tags is that you can only search for one tag at the time.
    You can't search for Android or Mobile in one go if you try to find a previous thread about an issue, you can only search for all specified tags (Android and Mobile: &q_tags=android,mobile) if you want to search for a problem with a mobile device and you do not know how it is tagged.
    The same for platform related tags (Mac, Windows), tags need to a a perfect match or you won't get the result that you look for.

    A further problem with tags is that you can only search for one tag at the time.<br /> You can't search for Android or Mobile in one go if you try to find a previous thread about an issue, you can only search for all specified tags (Android and Mobile: &q_tags=android,mobile) if you want to search for a problem with a mobile device and you do not know how it is tagged.<br /> The same for platform related tags (Mac, Windows), tags need to a a perfect match or you won't get the result that you look for.
  3. Mike Cooper
    Mike Cooper 76 posts
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    John99 said

    EXAMPLE If I search the forum manually by eye, scrolling for recent threads about crashes the most recent five I see are
    1. Firefox crashes /questions/982389
    2. Firefox crashes /questions/982381
    3. Firefox crashes /questions/982336
    4. Adobe flash plugin keeps crashing. Please help! /questions/968190
    5. Websites with flash content are always slow or crash the plugin. Is flash player or firefox? IE and Chrome do not experience this problem.All plugins up to date /questions/979912
    6. ( how is that firefox doesn't restore session anymore?? /questions/981894 ) {Crash mentioned in the post
    Not one of those is tagged as a crash. So advanced search for tag crash is pointless.

    Tags aren't currently meant to be used for things like "Crashes" or "Android". That's what the product and topic filters are for. For example, all of the questions you linked there would show up in this view of the questions, as they all have the topic "Fix slowness, crashing, error messages and other problems": https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions?product=firefox&topic=fix-problems

    To filter by topic, you first have to filter by product, in the top right, and then by topic. The reason for this is because there is a different set of topics for each product.

    Regarding your first point, about answering questions from mobile: This is not currently something we are developing for. We know it's important, we just have been doing other things. I believe that contributing on mobile (answering questions), is something we are going to be working on in the near future.

    ''John99 [[#post-56264|said]]'' <blockquote> EXAMPLE If I search the forum manually by eye, scrolling for recent threads about crashes the most recent five I see are # Firefox crashes [/questions/982389] # Firefox crashes [/questions/982381] # Firefox crashes [/questions/982336] # Adobe flash plugin keeps crashing. Please help! [/questions/968190] # Websites with flash content are always slow or crash the plugin. Is flash player or firefox? IE and Chrome do not experience this problem.All plugins up to date [/questions/979912] #( how is that firefox doesn't restore session anymore?? [/questions/981894] ) {Crash mentioned in the post Not one of those is tagged as a crash. So advanced search for tag ''crash'' is pointless. </blockquote> Tags aren't currently meant to be used for things like "Crashes" or "Android". That's what the product and topic filters are for. For example, all of the questions you linked there would show up in this view of the questions, as they all have the topic "Fix slowness, crashing, error messages and other problems": https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions?product=firefox&topic=fix-problems To filter by topic, you first have to filter by product, in the top right, and then by topic. The reason for this is because there is a different set of topics for each product. Regarding your first point, about answering questions from mobile: This is not currently something we are developing for. We know it's important, we just have been doing other things. I believe that contributing on mobile (answering questions), is something we are going to be working on in the near future.
  4. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    Hi Mike,
    First of all thanks for taking the trouble to answer from a developers view.

    I guess you are agreeing with me Tags and Topics are both useless to contributors.

    Advanced Search - shortcomings
    I guess you will also be aware the advanced search has severe limitations. No doubt you have tried the search hard coded from crash stats, and intended to search sumo, the results are pretty much pointless. I am sure you would agree with that sentiment if you have had the misfortune to have tried it.

    • Have you tried it ?
    • Are you able to suggest any circumstances in which it is likely to be useful. I am not sure I can think of any use for it at all, where it could be considered possible for the results to be helpful ?
      Or can you or any user of Crash Stats point out any example where this is useful ?
    • I consider it to have only a negative value and should therefore be removed from crash stats unless or until it is made to work.
      Do you agree ?

    With a proper advanced search with boolean options, string search and thread title search we would not be so concerned about trying to use tags or topics, and a hard coded search from crash stats could produce reasonable results.

    Advanced Search: Tags
    What is the point of having a tag system and an advanced search that allows tags to be searched for if 

    Tags aren't currently meant to be used for things like "Crashes" or "Android".
    • "crash" is a valid tag as is "android"
    • Are you saying we must not try to use advanced search to look for a valid tag such as crash or android ? !!
    • Or just admitting that the tags tend not to be used effectively ?
    • Clearly the tide has turned and tags are not being deprecated so we need to be able to search for them. Do you agree ?

    Questions about Mobiles
    I find it astounding to learn 

     about answering questions from mobile: This is not currently something we are developing for.

    We have KB articles about Mobiles. We have a specific product entry point to the AAQ for Mobiles. See

    Topics Search
    As for topics what I was not even certain what they were actually named.
    Just that it was about it six pretty useless categories ?
    (As far as a contributor is concerned.)

    I may be wrong but I do not think they are searchable.
    I now see they are at least filterable.

    Mike Cooper said

    To filter by topic, you first have to filter by product, in the top right, and then by topic. The reason for this is because there is a different set of topics for each product.

    To be honest I had not even seen this apparently unannounced and undocumented feature, so thanks for enlightening me.

    I agree the product selector is useful.

    I am however surprised this is missing a selector for product Thunderbird as we now have Thunderbird listed as a product when asking questions, but it is entered under other and even that has no selector.

    As in this or posts I have made previously I see the topic selector to be of little to nil use to most contributors; at least IMHO, because of the topics used. Sure they may help when selecting what a user is to be shown.

    topic selector

    The topics though are not much use to contributors. I think it is rather a waste having the resources of the AAQ forum full of answers then having difficulty trying to find them.

    Hi Mike, <br />First of all thanks for taking the trouble to answer from a developers view. I guess you are agreeing with me Tags and Topics are both useless to contributors. <u>Advanced Search - shortcomings </u><br /> I guess you will also be aware the advanced search has severe limitations. No doubt you have tried the search '''hard coded from crash stats,''' and intended to search sumo, the results are pretty much pointless. I am sure you would agree with that sentiment if you have had the misfortune to have tried it. * Have you tried it ? * Are you able to suggest any circumstances in which it is likely to be useful. I am not sure I can think of any use for it at all, where it could be considered possible for the results to be helpful ? <br />Or can you or any user of Crash Stats point out any example where this is useful ? *I consider it to have only a negative value and should therefore be removed from crash stats unless or until it is made to work.<br /> Do you agree ? With a proper advanced search with boolean options, string search and thread title search we would not be so concerned about trying to use tags or topics, and a hard coded search from crash stats could produce reasonable results. <u>Advanced Search: Tags</u><br /> What is the point of having a tag system and an advanced search that allows tags to be searched for if ''Tags aren't currently meant to be used for things like "Crashes" or "Android". '' * ''"crash"'' is a valid tag as is ''"android"'' * Are you saying we must not try to use advanced search to look for a valid tag such as ''crash'' or ''android'' ? !! * Or just admitting that the tags tend not to be used effectively ? * Clearly the tide has turned and tags are not being deprecated so we need to be able to search for them. Do you agree ? <u>Questions about Mobiles</u><br /> I find it astounding to learn '' about answering questions from mobile: This is not currently something we are developing for.'' We have KB articles about Mobiles. We have a specific product entry point to the AAQ for Mobiles. See * https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/new ** Mobile [/questions/new/mobile] ** Fx OS [/questions/new/firefox-os] ** '''Thunderbird''' [/questions/new/other] <u>Topics Search</u><br /> As for topics what I was not even certain what they were actually named. <br /> Just that it was about it six pretty useless categories ?<br /> (As far as a contributor is concerned.) I may be wrong but I do not think they are searchable. <br /> I now see they are at least filterable. ''Mike Cooper [[#post-56334|said]]'' <blockquote> To filter by topic, you first have to filter by product, in the top right, and then by topic. The reason for this is because there is a different set of topics for each product. </blockquote> To be honest I had not even seen this apparently unannounced and undocumented feature, so thanks for enlightening me. I agree the product selector is useful. I am however surprised this is missing a selector for product '''Thunderbird''' as we now have Thunderbird listed as a product when asking questions, but it is entered under ''other'' and even that has no selector. As in this or posts I have made previously I see the topic selector to be of little to nil use to most contributors; at least IMHO, because of the topics used. Sure they may help when selecting what a user is to be shown. [[Image:topic selector]] The topics though are not much use to contributors. I think it is rather a waste having the resources of the AAQ forum full of answers then having difficulty trying to find them.
  5. Kadir Topal
    Kadir Topal 1215 posts
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    It looks like this discussion evolved into an advanced search thread. Last time I asked for use cases I didn't get as much feedback as I was hoping for, but from what I got I created a list of uses cases: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/sumo-advanced-search-use-cases

    John, Cor-el, and everyone else who is using advanced search. Could you please put your use cases in the etherpad? We can than prioritize them and get them into the backlog to be implemented.

    Just trying to cover all possible cases didn't really work for us. It's hard to do and the complexity of the interface makes it unusable.

    It looks like this discussion evolved into an advanced search thread. Last time I asked for use cases I didn't get as much feedback as I was hoping for, but from what I got I created a list of uses cases: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/sumo-advanced-search-use-cases John, Cor-el, and everyone else who is using advanced search. Could you please put your use cases in the etherpad? We can than prioritize them and get them into the backlog to be implemented. Just trying to cover all possible cases didn't really work for us. It's hard to do and the complexity of the interface makes it unusable.
  6. Kadir Topal
    Kadir Topal 1215 posts
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    Also, to clarify "about answering questions from mobile". In our redesign last year, when we redid SUMO on mobile from scratch we said that all user facing parts of the websites were a priority 1 , contributor facing parts priority 2, and admin facing things priority 3. We finished all priority 1 items last year, but left the contributor facing parts for later.

    So, if you see contributor facing things in the mobile view, that's because it was quick and easy to implement, we haven't really given it a lot of thought though. That is changing this year. As you can see from the roadmap we are are going to make a start with the Army of Awesome, and over time cover more and more contributor facing parts on mobile.

    Re tags: We are currently reusing the topics from the KB side. That makes it really easy to suggest things during the AAQ, but might not the most useful thing beyond that. Honestly, this is something we know about, but it's just not been a high enough priority to work on. We have deemphasized tags in the forum UI and their current implementation doesn't really hurt. It's not helping either of course.

    We have now products that are assigned to a question and topics that are bound to a product. So, desktop/mobile and the topics tag should be removed. That would currently leave only the Firefox version and the OS version as tags (plus "escalate" and "offtopic"). Like I said, we haven't really spend much time discussing that, but we can if there is interest in that.

    In the end we might want to move to a tightly controlled core set of tags (like "escalate") and any number of ad-hoc tags, to mark emerging issues as belonging together.

    In the past we have used tags for all kind of things, and we have consolidated their use last year, when we added proper multi-product support to Kitsune. Now, we have

    Also, to clarify "about answering questions from mobile". In our redesign last year, when we redid SUMO on mobile from scratch we said that all user facing parts of the websites were a priority 1 , contributor facing parts priority 2, and admin facing things priority 3. We finished all priority 1 items last year, but left the contributor facing parts for later. So, if you see contributor facing things in the mobile view, that's because it was quick and easy to implement, we haven't really given it a lot of thought though. That is changing this year. As you can see from the [https://trello.com/b/lo2NBhas/sumo-roadmap roadmap] we are are going to make a start with the Army of Awesome, and over time cover more and more contributor facing parts on mobile. Re tags: We are currently reusing the topics from the KB side. That makes it really easy to suggest things during the AAQ, but might not the most useful thing beyond that. Honestly, this is something we know about, but it's just not been a high enough priority to work on. We have deemphasized tags in the forum UI and their current implementation doesn't really hurt. It's not helping either of course. We have now products that are assigned to a question and topics that are bound to a product. So, desktop/mobile and the topics tag should be removed. That would currently leave only the Firefox version and the OS version as tags (plus "escalate" and "offtopic"). Like I said, we haven't really spend much time discussing that, but we can if there is interest in that. In the end we might want to move to a tightly controlled core set of tags (like "escalate") and any number of ad-hoc tags, to mark emerging issues as belonging together. In the past we have used tags for all kind of things, and we have consolidated their use last year, when we added proper multi-product support to Kitsune. Now, we have