SUMO community discussions

SUMO questions, does troubleshooting add-on work as intended ?

  • 44 replies
  • Last reply by Kadir Topal
  1. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    I have tried in stage, and the add-on does not seem to work. It tries to install each time I ask a question regardless of whether I have the add-on already installed.

    Trying in the ordinary current Sumo the first time i ask it offers to install, I accept that but then do not see the information populate the troubleshooting field. That leaves the user with prompts to use the manual methods, and I think the majority of users ignore that.

    If once the add-on is installed i ask a question the add-on does work and I see the field populate. So

    • Can others confirm it does not work on an initial question, if the add-on is not installed
      Not of much use if it does not work first time. We need to help those asking a first question.
    • If others find it is not working in stage does that indicate it is about to break

    I think it would be an improvement if the add-on could offer to suppress copying the print information. Unless it is a question relating to printing the print information only necessarily clutters up the information.

    Incidentally the Crash ID field seems to have disapeared./kb/firefox-crashes-troubleshoot-prev.../4682#post-8035

    I have tried in stage, and the add-on does not seem to work. It tries to install each time I ask a question regardless of whether I have the add-on already installed. Trying in the ordinary current Sumo the first time i ask it offers to install, I accept that but then do not see the information populate the troubleshooting field. That leaves the user with prompts to use the manual methods, and I think the majority of users ignore that. If once the add-on is installed i ask a question the add-on does work and I see the field populate. So * Can others confirm it does not work on an initial question, if the add-on is not installed <br />Not of much use if it does not work first time. We need to help those asking a first question. * If others find it is not working in stage does that indicate it is about to break I think it would be an improvement if the add-on could offer to suppress copying the print information. Unless it is a question relating to printing the print information only necessarily clutters up the information. Incidentally the Crash ID field seems to have disapeared.[/kb/firefox-crashes-troubleshoot-prevent-and-get-help/discuss/4682#post-8035]
  2. Ricky Rosario
    Ricky Rosario 328 posts
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    It will only work on production because only support.mozilla.org is whitelisted to be given the information the addon grabs.

    I just tested on prod and it is working as I expect. If I dont have the addon install, I fix that with two clicks. The next time around it just grabs the info.

    It will only work on production because only support.mozilla.org is whitelisted to be given the information the addon grabs. I just tested on prod and it is working as I expect. If I dont have the addon install, I fix that with two clicks. The next time around it just grabs the info.
  3. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    rrosario said

    .... I just tested on prod and it is working as I expect. If I dont have the addon install, I fix that with two clicks. The next time around it just grabs the info.

    The point I tried to make is it is the first time posters we are trying to help.
    The ones that will not; or can not copy/paste/edit.

    If the procedure is not fully automated the first timers are stranded. Having a procedure that only works the second time round is not a good solution.

    If we can not fix it maybe we need to add an instruction for the new user to exit and ask the question again later after the addon has installed.

    ''rrosario [[#post-50682|said]]'' <blockquote> .... I just tested on prod and it is working as I expect. If I dont have the addon install, I fix that with two clicks. The next time around it just grabs the info. </blockquote> The point I tried to make is it is the first time posters we are trying to help.<br /> The ones that will not; or can not copy/paste/edit. If the procedure is not fully automated the first timers are stranded. Having a procedure that only works the second time round is not a good solution. If we can not fix it maybe we need to add an instruction for the new user to exit and ask the question again later after the addon has installed.
  4. Ricky Rosario
    Ricky Rosario 328 posts
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    Hmm, I am confused. It works for me the first time around without restarting my browser or leaving the page. You click install buttons twice and done, the information is filled in.

    Is that not what you are seeing?

    Hmm, I am confused. It works for me the first time around without restarting my browser or leaving the page. You click install buttons twice and done, the information is filled in. Is that not what you are seeing?
  5. philipp
    philipp 1313 posts
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    hmm this looks interesting - would such an addon in principle also allow for hand-crafted troubleshooting steps which could take over the hassle for people to manually edit about:config, something in the sort of: "in order to reset pref.XY click here."

    hmm this looks interesting - would such an addon in principle also allow for hand-crafted troubleshooting steps which could take over the hassle for people to manually edit about:config, something in the sort of: "in order to reset pref.XY click here."
  6. cor-el
    cor-el 1502 posts
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    Moderators see a button to install this extension if we edit the first post to include troubleshooting information automatically.

    Moderators see a button to install this extension if we edit the first post to include troubleshooting information automatically. *https://support.mozilla.org/media/addons/troubleshooter.xpi
  7. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    rrosario said

    Hmm, I am confused. It works for me the first time around without restarting my browser or leaving the page. You click install buttons twice and done, the information is filled in. Is that not what you are seeing?

    Sorry my bad.

    It works as expected in a clean profile.

    P.S. It is now working in my ordinary profile, and I am unable to make it fail !

    ''rrosario [[#post-50699|said]]'' <blockquote> Hmm, I am confused. It works for me the first time around without restarting my browser or leaving the page. You click install buttons twice and done, the information is filled in. Is that not what you are seeing? </blockquote> Sorry my bad. It works as expected in a clean profile. P.S. It is now working in my ordinary profile, and I am unable to make it fail !

    Modified by John99 on

  8. Ricky Rosario
    Ricky Rosario 328 posts
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    John99 said

    Sorry my bad. It works as expected in a clean profile. P.S. It is now working in my ordinary profile, and I am unable to make it fail !

    No worries! Glad it works, I was getting worried :)

    Thanks!

    ''John99 [[#post-50708|said]]'' <blockquote> Sorry my bad. It works as expected in a clean profile. P.S. It is now working in my ordinary profile, and I am unable to make it fail ! </blockquote> No worries! Glad it works, I was getting worried :) Thanks!
  9. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    Ricky,
    It does NOT appear to be working.

    .rrosario said
    ... I just tested on prod and it is working as I expect. If I dont have the addon install, I fix that with two clicks. The next time around it just grabs the info.

    Did you actually look at your post afterwards ?

    Initially I tried on stage, then only went part way on prod, not wanting to unecessarily add questions to the support forum

    I have now posted a couple of questions and the field populates ok, and can even be seen on editing the sumo forum BUT the More system information Link does NOT contain that information.
    see

    Only Mods and Admins will ever see the information.

    Maybe you could look at it again please.

    Ricky, <br />It does NOT appear to be working. .''rrosario [[#post-50682|said]]''<blockquote> ... I just tested on prod and it is working as I expect. If I dont have the addon install, I fix that with two clicks. The next time around it just grabs the info. </blockquote> '''Did you actually look at your post afterwards ?''' Initially I tried on stage, then only went part way on prod, not wanting to unecessarily add questions to the support forum I have now posted a couple of questions and the field populates ok, and can even be seen on editing the sumo forum BUT the More system information Link does NOT contain that information. <br /> see * [/questions/950025] * mods/admins look at [/questions/950025/edit] Only Mods and Admins will ever see the information. Maybe you could look at it again please.
  10. Ricky Rosario
    Ricky Rosario 328 posts
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    John99 said

    Ricky,
    It does NOT appear to be working.

    Oh, you mean we don't actually show the information? Yeah, pretty useless eh? We know about it and are working on it: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=836321

    It should land this week. Apparently, we never showed this info :-/

    ''John99 [[#post-50714|said]]'' <blockquote> Ricky, <br />It does NOT appear to be working. </blockquote> Oh, you mean we don't actually '''show''' the information? Yeah, pretty useless eh? We know about it and are working on it: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=836321 It should land this week. Apparently, we never showed this info :-/
  11. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    Oh I assumed it was fully working already.

    Whilst working on it Tyler says in the first bug comment 

    These are non-critical fields we don't have to show:
modifiedPreferences 
accessibility
libraryVersions

    I would have thought the modified preferences may sometimes be of use. (although It does not show all modified preferences anyway)

    As I mentioned earlier It would probably be good if it offered to only show print information on print related questions. They take up a lot of room and have to be scrolled over.

    Thanks for the speedy reply.

    Oh I assumed it was fully working already. Whilst working on it Tyler says in the first bug comment These are non-critical fields we don't have to show: modifiedPreferences accessibility libraryVersions I would have thought the modified preferences may sometimes be of use. (although It does not show all modified preferences anyway) As I mentioned earlier It would probably be good if it offered to only show print information on print related questions. They take up a lot of room and have to be scrolled over. Thanks for the speedy reply.
  12. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    madperson said

    hmm this looks interesting - would such an addon in principle also allow for hand-crafted troubleshooting steps which could take over the hassle for people to manually edit about:config, something in the sort of: "in order to reset pref.XY click here."

    I agree an add on that produces an alternative interface to about:config may posssibly have some benefit. As will some that make very specific changes.

    I suspect one problem with your idea may be one of security

    Obviously if someone can get into about:config they get such options already. It is fairly user friendly as it is. A lot easier than closing Firefox and trying to edit prefs.js The more important/common options are changed elsewhere anyway.

    I guess there needs to be a balance. We may need to be wary of anything changing about:config. Also make it too easy and a lot of users will get in a mess, with no simple solution ther than resetting Firefox.

    ''madperson [[#post-50700|said]]'' <blockquote> hmm this looks interesting - would such an addon in principle also allow for hand-crafted troubleshooting steps which could take over the hassle for people to manually edit about:config, something in the sort of: "in order to reset pref.XY click here." </blockquote> I agree an add on that produces an alternative interface to about:config may posssibly have some benefit. As will some that make very specific changes. I suspect one problem with your idea may be one of security Obviously if someone can get into about:config they get such options already. It is fairly user friendly as it is. A lot easier than closing Firefox and trying to edit prefs.js The more important/common options are changed elsewhere anyway. I guess there needs to be a balance. We may need to be wary of anything changing about:config. Also make it too easy and a lot of users will get in a mess, with no simple solution ther than resetting Firefox.
  13. AliceWyman
    AliceWyman 6437 posts
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    John99 said

    Whilst working on it Tyler says in the first bug comment

    These are non-critical fields we don't have to show:
    modifiedPreferences
    accessibility
    libraryVersions


    I would have thought the modified preferences may sometimes be of use. (although It does not show all modified preferences anyway)

    I think that modified preferences need to be shown since they do help in troubleshooting.

    Related discussion: /forums/contributors/708157 What prefs should be added to about:support whitelist?

    ''John99 [[#post-50717|said]]'' <blockquote> Whilst working on it Tyler says in the first bug comment <br><br> These are non-critical fields we don't have to show:<br> modifiedPreferences <br> accessibility<br> libraryVersions<br> <br><br> I would have thought the modified preferences may sometimes be of use. (although It does not show all modified preferences anyway) </blockquote> I think that modified preferences need to be shown since they do help in troubleshooting. Related discussion: [/forums/contributors/708157] What prefs should be added to about:support whitelist?
  14. user633449
    user633449 503 posts
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    Modified prefs rarely help in troubleshooting, they are mainly printing prefs or things the average user won't touch, like HTML5, etc. If there are specific reasons that we should show the modified prefs (like a forum thread where they were helpful in solving) we can display, we can consider adding them. Otherwise they are just a bunch of extra text that will make the dialog harder to read.

    I'm open to arguments though :)

    Modified prefs rarely help in troubleshooting, they are mainly printing prefs or things the average user won't touch, like HTML5, etc. If there are specific reasons that we should show the modified prefs (like a forum thread where they were helpful in solving) we can display, we can consider adding them. Otherwise they are just a bunch of extra text that will make the dialog harder to read. I'm open to arguments though :)
  15. philipp
    philipp 1313 posts
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    hello tyler, if i go back through my posting history i'm sure that i'll find hundreds of examples where modified prefs were very helpful in assessing the situation (has adware modified common search preferences, are the network settings tampered with, is the useragent altered, is caret browsing mode on etc.).

    they are also useful in finding out solutions to new upcoming issues - if you want to have one concrete example, see https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/929179. it turned out it was a wrongly set pref (probably by some sort of tuning utility) that caused an encoding issue when spdy was introduced & without modified prefs we would have continued to shoot in the dark. once established what the problem was, it was possible to give the dozens-hundreds of users with the same issue a quick solution instead of just asking them to reset firefox without understanding what's really going on...

    so count me as strongly in favour of keeping them!

    edit: the preferences can also be used to exclude certain sources for an issue - this avoids having the user to go through unnecessary troubleshooting steps & makes it possible to provide more answers that are on the spot the first time!

    hello tyler, if i go back through my posting history i'm sure that i'll find hundreds of examples where modified prefs were very helpful in assessing the situation (has adware modified common search preferences, are the network settings tampered with, is the useragent altered, is caret browsing mode on etc.). they are also useful in finding out solutions to new upcoming issues - if you want to have one concrete example, see https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/929179. it turned out it was a wrongly set pref (probably by some sort of tuning utility) that caused an encoding issue when spdy was introduced & without modified prefs we would have continued to shoot in the dark. once established what the problem was, it was possible to give the dozens-hundreds of users with the same issue a quick solution instead of just asking them to reset firefox without understanding what's really going on... so count me as strongly in favour of keeping them! ''edit: the preferences can also be used to exclude certain sources for an issue - this avoids having the user to go through unnecessary troubleshooting steps & makes it possible to provide more answers that are on the spot the first time!''

    Modified by philipp on

  16. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    It will be easier to see how helpful the prefs are if we see them more often.

    It just strikes me as the wrong way to go about things. We have for a long while been asking users to provide this information, and have a whitelist to list it. Now we are automating it to make it available easily and frequently on the forum, but are apparently almost without discussion drastically restricting that information.

    Let's remember it is not listing all prefs, it is only listing changed prefs, and so may give clues to problems.

    Who knows maybe HTML5 prefs will in future a become useful in troubleshooting as HTML5 is used more. Certainly we may expect pdf related questions. Probably not too common currently but javascript prefs may be useful, same sometimes with compatibility prefs. There are also possibly quite a few questions about home pages. user.js is something that occasionally causes a problem, if it exists it is probably good to know.

    It is not just users directly setting prefs, that is presumably not too common, but it is choosing settings from the UI or maybe some add-on that makes a change.

    It is probably the print confirmation that causes clutter when the prefs are posted. I do not understand Fifefox's, printing but for someone dealing with a print related questions I imagine they are very useful. As suggested in the other thread this should optionally be suppressed either automatically, or by asking the user.

    It will be easier to see how helpful the prefs are if we see them more often. It just strikes me as the wrong way to go about things. We have for a long while been asking users to provide this information, and have a whitelist to list it. Now we are automating it to make it available easily and frequently on the forum, but are apparently almost without discussion drastically restricting that information. Let's remember it is not listing all prefs, it is only listing changed prefs, and so may give clues to problems. Who knows maybe HTML5 prefs will in future a become useful in troubleshooting as HTML5 is used more. Certainly we may expect pdf related questions. Probably not too common currently but javascript prefs may be useful, same sometimes with compatibility prefs. There are also possibly quite a few questions about home pages. ''user.js'' is something that occasionally causes a problem, if it exists it is probably good to know. It is not just users directly setting prefs, that is presumably not too common, but it is choosing settings from the UI or maybe some add-on that makes a change. It is probably the print confirmation that causes clutter when the prefs are posted. I do not understand Fifefox's, printing but for someone dealing with a print related questions I imagine they are very useful. As suggested in the other thread this should optionally be suppressed either automatically, or by asking the user.
  17. Chris Ilias
    Chris Ilias 2450 posts
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    I haven't been following this thread as closely as I would like. Sorry, I've been working.

    If I understand correctly, there are proposed changes to the way about:support info is displayed on sumo, notably modified prefs are not being displayed. Correct?

    If so, that goes against the purpose of about:support. The purpose of about:support is to help users provide as much info about their setup as possible (see bug 367596). Support volunteers should not only be able assess a problem by looking at the data, but in cases where the cause of the problem is not obvious, the info should help others replicate the user's setup and hopefully reproduce the issue.

    For instance, in this example I was able to figure out that the cause of a user's problem was the combination of security.warn_leaving_secure;true and the noscript extension.
    http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/msg/3089a9bc923bd181
    Not only was a modified pref useful, but I didn't know that pref was useful until I reproduced the user's setup.

    If there's a problem with about:support pasting TMI, then I'd like to see improvements in the way the info is formatted, and a tool that will make it easy to take someone's about:support info, and apply to a local test profile (i.e. tool to replicate the user's setup).

    I haven't been following this thread as closely as I would like. Sorry, I've been working. If I understand correctly, there are proposed changes to the way about:support info is displayed on sumo, notably modified prefs are not being displayed. Correct? If so, that goes against the purpose of about:support. The purpose of about:support is to help users provide as much info about their setup as possible (see [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=367596 bug 367596]). Support volunteers should not only be able assess a problem by looking at the data, but in cases where the cause of the problem is not obvious, the info should help others replicate the user's setup and hopefully reproduce the issue. For instance, in this example I was able to figure out that the cause of a user's problem was the combination of security.warn_leaving_secure;true and the noscript extension.<br/> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/msg/3089a9bc923bd181 <br/> Not only was a modified pref useful, but I didn't know that pref was useful until I reproduced the user's setup. If there's a problem with about:support pasting TMI, then I'd like to see improvements in the way the info is formatted, and a tool that will make it easy to take someone's about:support info, and apply to a local test profile (i.e. tool to replicate the user's setup).
  18. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    Chris_Ilias said

    .... If I understand correctly, there are proposed changes to the way about:support info is displayed on sumo, notably modified prefs are not being displayed. Correct? .....

    Yes Correct

    Chris two major points

    1. There is a currently a sumo aaq button that appears to work, to add troubleshooting information, but does not work.
      (The information is in fact indirectly viewable by Admins and Mods but not the user or other contributors)
    2. Once it is fixed,the bug is saying that prefs are not critical and will no longer be included.
      (Unless a solid case can be made for their inclusion)
    Modified prefs rarely help in troubleshooting, they are mainly printing prefs or things the average user won't touch, like HTML5, etc. If there are specific reasons that we should show the modified prefs (like a forum thread where they were helpful in solving) we can display, we can consider adding them. Otherwise they are just a bunch of extra text that will make the dialog harder to read.

    I'm open to arguments though :)

    Seems a step backwards to me

    ''Chris_Ilias [[#post-50757|said]]'' <blockquote> .... If I understand correctly, there are proposed changes to the way about:support info is displayed on sumo, notably modified prefs are not being displayed. Correct? ..... </blockquote> Yes Correct Chris two major points # There is a currently a sumo aaq button that appears to work, to add troubleshooting information, but does not work. <br /> (The information is in fact indirectly viewable by Admins and Mods but not the user or other contributors) #Once it is fixed,the bug is saying that prefs are not critical and will no longer be included. <br />(Unless a solid case can be made for their inclusion) * see [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=836321 Bug 836321 - Parse and Display Troubleshooting information in "More Details" ] *and ''Tylerdowner [[#post-50724|said]]'' <blockquote> Modified prefs rarely help in troubleshooting, they are mainly printing prefs or things the average user won't touch, like HTML5, etc. If there are specific reasons that we should show the modified prefs (like a forum thread where they were helpful in solving) we can display, we can consider adding them. Otherwise they are just a bunch of extra text that will make the dialog harder to read. <br /><br /> I'm open to arguments though :) </blockquote> Seems a step backwards to me

    Modified by John99 on

  19. Mike Cooper
    Mike Cooper 76 posts
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    I just implemented this last night, and it is in code review today. Hopefully we will see this on the site later today or tomorrow. After reading this thread, I decided that modified preferences were a useful troubleshooting tool, so I included them in the display, with the caveat that printing preferences are hidden. To me these seem very noisy and not very useful. If someone disagrees, please let me know and I can figure out a smarter way to handle that particular mass of data.

    On a side note, in fixing this I found that we *were* actually showing this data before, and that when I added the automated process via the add-on, I made a mistake that caused that data to not be sent to the server. There is a fix for this also in code review, and it should go out with the other fix. I hope they will land together.

    If anyone has feedback on this once it lands, I'm happy to hear it.

    I just implemented this last night, and it is in code review today. Hopefully we will see this on the site later today or tomorrow. After reading this thread, I decided that modified preferences were a useful troubleshooting tool, so I included them in the display, with the caveat that printing preferences are hidden. To me these seem very noisy and not very useful. If someone disagrees, please let me know and I can figure out a smarter way to handle that particular mass of data. On a side note, in fixing this I found that we *were* actually showing this data before, and that when I added the automated process via the add-on, I made a mistake that caused that data to not be sent to the server. There is a fix for this also in code review, and it should go out with the other fix. I hope they will land together. If anyone has feedback on this once it lands, I'm happy to hear it.
  20. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    Mike,
    Thanks for posting back into this thread to keep us informed.

    As contributors we do not see this sort of thing as we do not normally post threads ourselves. Note as mentioned above apparently this does not work on stage so we are unable to test it there.

    I will make a note for the next sumo meeting on 25th, see if this can be discussed, and more importantly maybe somehow promoted more to users, as I suspect troubleshooting information is rarely posted by users at present. (No metrics just gut feeling based on looking at and answering questions) https://etherpad.mozilla.org/sumo-2013-02-25

    Mike, <br />Thanks for posting back into this thread to keep us informed. As contributors we do not see this sort of thing as we do not normally post threads ourselves. Note as mentioned above apparently this does not work on stage so we are unable to test it there. I will make a note for the next sumo meeting on 25th, see if this can be discussed, and more importantly maybe somehow promoted more to users, as I suspect troubleshooting information is rarely posted by users at present. (No metrics just gut feeling based on looking at and answering questions) https://etherpad.mozilla.org/sumo-2013-02-25
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