Dealing with hard questions, and having an escalation method

September 11, 2012, 11:19:18 PM PDT

Anyone got ideas on how we may improve the number of solved questions. My tentative proposal:

I think we need to have some method for tackling the unsolved questions, and trying to find solutions.

Status tag
Perhaps it would help if the posts were somehow flagged or tagged with a status. I am thinking something along the lines of

incomplete awaiting for response from OP
contributor unable to provide a suitable solution, help needed please

Discussion section for Hard Questions
Perhaps it would help if there was a specific section for use by contributors that could be used for discussing potential solutions to such hard questions. At the moment we have a large percentage of questions where there are answers, but not necessarily any answer shown as a solution. Some threads simply have answers that have been tried but do not solve the problem. We need some method of escalating these whether by the OP or the Contributor.

Anyone got ideas on how we may improve the number of solved questions. My tentative proposal: I think we need to have some method for tackling the unsolved questions, and trying to find solutions. Status tag Perhaps it would help if the posts were somehow flagged or tagged with a status. I am thinking something along the lines of * '''incomplete''' awaiting for response from OP * contributor unable to provide a suitable solution, '''help''' needed please Discussion section for Hard Questions Perhaps it would help if there was a specific section for use by contributors that could be used for discussing potential solutions to such hard questions. At the moment we have a large percentage of questions where there are answers, but not necessarily any answer shown as a solution. Some threads simply have answers that have been tried but do not solve the problem. We need some method of escalating these whether by the OP or the Contributor.

user633449 503 posts

September 12, 2012, 12:00:15 AM PDT

John, this is actually something I've been working on over the last few months, and tackling from a variety of different fronts. We are currently working on two proposals which should have a positive impact on dealing with the more difficult questions, as well as increasing our solved rate. However I do like your ideas, and I would love to hear more from you about this issue and any ideas you might have :)

One is data Clustering https://wiki.mozilla.org/Support/Kitsune/Features/Forum-Data-Clustering (this helps in ALOT of ways)

The other is Closing threads with no activity https://etherpad.mozilla.org/closing-forum-threads (this will help encourage users who forgot about their threads to come back and mark a solution)

John, this is actually something I've been working on over the last few months, and tackling from a variety of different fronts. We are currently working on two proposals which should have a positive impact on dealing with the more difficult questions, as well as increasing our solved rate. However I do like your ideas, and I would love to hear more from you about this issue and any ideas you might have :) One is data Clustering [https://wiki.mozilla.org/Support/Kitsune/Features/Forum-Data-Clustering https://wiki.mozilla.org/Support/Kitsune/Features/Forum-Data-Clustering] (this helps in ALOT of ways) The other is Closing threads with no activity [https://etherpad.mozilla.org/closing-forum-threads https://etherpad.mozilla.org/closing-forum-threads] (this will help encourage users who forgot about their threads to come back and mark a solution)

John99 3665 posts

September 12, 2012, 2:30:43 AM PDT

It may be worth giving a longer period before closing a thread, maybe a week, but certainly a few days, otherwise I can see that threads will be getting closed and then re-opened.

I do like the idea of data clustering, and any method of trying to resolve more of the open threads.

It may be worth giving a longer period before closing a thread, maybe a week, but certainly a few days, otherwise I can see that threads will be getting closed and then re-opened. I do like the idea of data clustering, and any method of trying to resolve more of the open threads.

ideato 567 posts

September 12, 2012, 3:49:22 AM PDT

Hi everyone

John99 said:

1) "contributor unable to provide a suitable solution, help needed please"

i like that and i want to see it in the forum (the only think i'm wondering is if the one who asks the question use that option without try all the suggestion, because seems difficult to his/her skills etc.)

2) "Discussion section for Hard Questions" for contributors

very very useful. i'm already ask for help in questions that i don't have the skills to solve from John99 and cor-el and never denied.(thank you again John99 & cor-el)

3) "It may be worth giving a longer period before closing a thread, maybe a week, but certainly a few days, otherwise I can see that threads will be getting closed and then re-opened. "

agreed 100%

thank you

Hi everyone John99 said: 1) "contributor unable to provide a suitable solution, help needed please" i like that and i want to see it in the forum (the only think i'm wondering is if the one who asks the question use that option without try all the suggestion, because seems difficult to his/her skills etc.) 2) "Discussion section for Hard Questions" for contributors very very useful. i'm already ask for help in questions that i don't have the skills to solve from John99 and cor-el and never denied.(thank you again John99 & cor-el) 3) "It may be worth giving a longer period before closing a thread, maybe a week, but certainly a few days, otherwise I can see that threads will be getting closed and then re-opened. " agreed 100% thank you

NoahSUMO 527 posts

September 12, 2012, 6:37:08 AM PDT

I think the problem is not having enough knowledgeable people to keep up with such hard questions. A lot of our new contributors are new, having only been here a few months, and probably don't know Firefox as deeply as one could (down to what specific files in the profile control what actions or could be responsible for certain breakages). Although more seasoned/veteran people like cor-el, the-edmeister, John99 and jscher2000 do know & can do great troubleshooting to resolve a problem.

John hit the nail on the head:
John99 said

Discussion section for Hard Questions
Perhaps it would help if there was a specific section for use by contributors that could be used for discussing potential solutions to such hard questions.

I agree with this. Perhaps a "Advanced Firefox troubleshooting" forum?

Why are we seeing an increase in difficult to resolve questions?
Wasn't "Firefox reset" supposed to be our ace in the hole? :P I believe rapid release is introducing a steady stream of issues that can't even be solved by Firefox reset. Even leaving our veterans tongue tied on a solving solution after doing exhaustive troubleshooting.

Even if we did have such a escalation system, I still don't think we can guarantee a solving answer. I imagine though the aforementioned people above will give it their best shot. But at least we'd have a better, organized picture of what the breaking issues were. I'd have to say this streak of increasingly difficult to answer questions are stemming from the rapid release model. Too many new issues are popping up simultaneously and no one can keep track of them all. I've been wanting to mark threads in the past with tags like "regression", "severe-regression", etc so I could keep them on the radar so to speak. Mods still don't have the ability to add custom tags.

Sorry to deviate, I just felt like the source of these woes should be pointed out as well.

I think the problem is not having enough knowledgeable people to keep up with such hard questions. A lot of our new contributors are new, having only been here a few months, and probably don't know Firefox as deeply as one could (down to what specific files in the profile control what actions or could be responsible for certain breakages). Although more seasoned/veteran people like cor-el, the-edmeister, John99 and jscher2000 do know & can do great troubleshooting to resolve a problem. John hit the nail on the head: ''John99 [[#post-48572|said]]'' <blockquote> Discussion section for Hard Questions Perhaps it would help if there was a specific section for use by contributors that could be used for discussing potential solutions to such hard questions. </blockquote> I agree with this. Perhaps a "Advanced Firefox troubleshooting" forum? '''Why are we seeing an increase in difficult to resolve questions?''' Wasn't "Firefox reset" supposed to be our ace in the hole? :P I believe rapid release is introducing a steady stream of issues that can't even be solved by Firefox reset. Even leaving our veterans tongue tied on a solving solution after doing exhaustive troubleshooting. Even if we did have such a escalation system, I still don't think we can guarantee a solving answer. I imagine though the aforementioned people above will give it their best shot. But at least we'd have a better, organized picture of what the breaking issues were. I'd have to say this streak of increasingly difficult to answer questions are stemming from the rapid release model. Too many new issues are popping up simultaneously and no one can keep track of them all. I've been wanting to mark threads in the past with tags like "regression", "severe-regression", etc so I could keep them on the radar so to speak. Mods still don't have the ability to add custom tags. Sorry to deviate, I just felt like the source of these woes should be pointed out as well.

user633449 503 posts

September 12, 2012, 7:21:27 AM PDT

Noah, Firefox Reset (from our tests) fixes >75% of all issues it is recommended for. It is a great fix for the majority of end users.

However, we are seeing an increase in more difficult to answer questions on the forum (this is something I've been try to understand "why"). So far as I can tell, these are coming from a few main sources:

Flash 11.3. This (for the past 2-3 months) has been the main pain point on SUMO. If you see our meeting notes/video, you'll see almost every week Matt or I have something new to say about Flash. It has manifested itself in may ways and accounts for both a spike in questions and visitors to SUMO recently.
Website Design Questions. We see a lot of questions from week to week about "How do I do X with my website" or "My website doesn't work" or "My website gives Y weird error". These don't really belong on SUMO, but there isn't really a better place for them to go. So, they are here. But alot of the community doesn't have the skills to help with these questions.

Rapid Release really doesn't have an impact on SUMO (at least in how many real bugs we see in the product). very very few threads (3-4%) are because of a bug in Firefox. Of course, if you see a bug, Please file a bug in Bugzilla Immediately. We can only be to aware of possible issues. Even if it doesn't end up being a real bug, or it's a duplicate, it's better to be safe than sorry.

We are working on Data Clustering, which is going to help us Bucket issues as they are filed on the site. That way we can keep track of trending issues MUCH more easily. Another one of the things I really want to improve for Q4 of this year is developing a better way to keep track of the status of these developing issues.

I also want to say, if any of you see an issue coming up on the forums repeatedly, please don't hesitate to either post on the contributor forums, bring it up on IRC, email or PM me. We track all these ongoing issues every day, and so hearing for you, our eyes and ears is one of or best ways of finding out new issues. Then we can pursue either a fix, or a good resolution. So, Please, the more information you send us, the better!

Noah, Firefox Reset (from our tests) fixes >75% of all issues it is recommended for. It is a great fix for the majority of end users. However, we are seeing an increase in more difficult to answer questions on the forum (this is something I've been try to understand "why"). So far as I can tell, these are coming from a few main sources: * Flash 11.3. This (for the past 2-3 months) has been the main pain point on SUMO. If you see our meeting notes/video, you'll see almost every week Matt or I have something new to say about Flash. It has manifested itself in may ways and accounts for both a spike in questions and visitors to SUMO recently. * Website Design Questions. We see a lot of questions from week to week about "How do I do X with my website" or "My website doesn't work" or "My website gives Y weird error". These don't really belong on SUMO, but there isn't really a better place for them to go. So, they are here. But alot of the community doesn't have the skills to help with these questions. Rapid Release really doesn't have an impact on SUMO (at least in how many real bugs we see in the product). very very few threads (3-4%) are because of a bug in Firefox. Of course, if you see a bug, Please file a bug in Bugzilla Immediately. We can only be to aware of possible issues. Even if it doesn't end up being a real bug, or it's a duplicate, it's better to be safe than sorry. We are working on Data Clustering, which is going to help us Bucket issues as they are filed on the site. That way we can keep track of trending issues MUCH more easily. Another one of the things I really want to improve for Q4 of this year is developing a better way to keep track of the status of these developing issues. I also want to say, if any of you see an issue coming up on the forums repeatedly, please don't hesitate to either post on the contributor forums, bring it up on IRC, email or PM me. We track all these ongoing issues every day, and so hearing for you, our eyes and ears is one of or best ways of finding out new issues. Then we can pursue either a fix, or a good resolution. So, Please, the more information you send us, the better!

cor-el 1497 posts

September 12, 2012, 4:20:49 PM PDT

My opinion is that a reset should be at least second choice for most issues and not be represented as the first (and only) choice.
A reset may be easy for the contributor who answers, but it still leaves the question about the cause and in a lot of cases the current profile may be easy to fix or the reset may not have worked and still other troubleshooting steps are required.
We lose a lot of expertise to go for such an easy solution in finding out the real cause of issues like operator errors or simple cache problems or just one pref with the wrong value (network.http.accept-encoding is an example that we've seen set to true or an empty string) and it may not work for issues with cookies.
Such issues can easily be fixed and shouldn't be a reason to create a new profile via a reset.
A lot of users may also not like to lose extension and their configuration data and other customizations.

Current Firefox 15+ versions move the profile to the desktop and that makes it impossible to undo this step (old profile name is unknown and moving the entire profile back under a different name is not recommended, apart from the InvalidateCaches=1 line in compatibility.ini).

My opinion is that a reset should be at least second choice for most issues and not be represented as the first (and only) choice. A reset may be easy for the contributor who answers, but it still leaves the question about the cause and in a lot of cases the current profile may be easy to fix or the reset may not have worked and still other troubleshooting steps are required. We lose a lot of expertise to go for such an ''easy solution'' in finding out the real cause of issues like operator errors or simple cache problems or just one pref with the wrong value (network.http.accept-encoding is an example that we've seen set to true or an empty string) and it may not work for issues with cookies. Such issues can easily be fixed and shouldn't be a reason to create a new profile via a reset. A lot of users may also not like to lose extension and their configuration data and other customizations. Current Firefox 15+ versions move the profile to the desktop and that makes it impossible to undo this step (old profile name is unknown and moving the entire profile back under a different name is not recommended, apart from the InvalidateCaches=1 line in compatibility.ini).

AliceWyman 6366 posts

September 12, 2012, 9:13:42 PM PDT

Tylerdowner said

Noah, Firefox Reset (from our tests) fixes >75% of all issues it is recommended for. It is a great fix for the majority of end users.

Did you document that study and if so, could you link to the results? I'm asking because I did an Advanced search and here is a list of questions created during the last 3 months, in which you replied, containing the term "Reset Firefox - Easily fix" .... and I didn't see anywhere near a 75% solved rate on the first two pages of results:

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/search?q=Reset+Firefox+-+Easily+fix&num_voted=0&num_votes=&asked_by=&answered_by=Tylerdowner&q_tags=&created=2&created_date=06%2F14%2F2012&updated=0&updated_date=&sortby=0&a=1&w=2

cor-el said

My opinion is that a reset should be at least second choice for most issues and not be represented as the first (and only) choice.
A reset may be easy for the contributor who answers, but it still leaves the question about the cause and in a lot of cases the current profile may be easy to fix or the reset may not have worked and still other troubleshooting steps are required.
We lose a lot of expertise to go for such an easy solution in finding out the real cause of issues like operator errors or simple cache problems or just one pref with the wrong value (network.http.accept-encoding is an example that we've seen set to true or an empty string) and it may not work for issues with cookies.
Such issues can easily be fixed and shouldn't be a reason to create a new profile via a reset.
A lot of users may also not like to lose extension and their configuration data and other customizations. Current Firefox 15+ versions move the profile to the desktop and that makes it impossible to undo this step (old profile name is unknown and moving the entire profile back under a different name is not recommended, apart from the InvalidateCaches=1 line in compatibility.ini).

Agree!

''Tylerdowner [[#post-48600|said]]'' <blockquote> Noah, Firefox Reset (from our tests) fixes >75% of all issues it is recommended for. It is a great fix for the majority of end users. </blockquote> Did you document that study and if so, could you link to the results? I'm asking because I did an Advanced search and here is a list of questions created during the last 3 months, in which you replied, containing the term "Reset Firefox - Easily fix" .... and I didn't see anywhere near a 75% solved rate on the first two pages of results: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/search?q=Reset+Firefox+-+Easily+fix&num_voted=0&num_votes=&asked_by=&answered_by=Tylerdowner&q_tags=&created=2&created_date=06%2F14%2F2012&updated=0&updated_date=&sortby=0&a=1&w=2 ''cor-el [[#post-48614|said]]'' <blockquote> My opinion is that a reset should be at least second choice for most issues and not be represented as the first (and only) choice. A reset may be easy for the contributor who answers, but it still leaves the question about the cause and in a lot of cases the current profile may be easy to fix or the reset may not have worked and still other troubleshooting steps are required. We lose a lot of expertise to go for such an ''easy solution'' in finding out the real cause of issues like operator errors or simple cache problems or just one pref with the wrong value (network.http.accept-encoding is an example that we've seen set to true or an empty string) and it may not work for issues with cookies. Such issues can easily be fixed and shouldn't be a reason to create a new profile via a reset. A lot of users may also not like to lose extension and their configuration data and other customizations. Current Firefox 15+ versions move the profile to the desktop and that makes it impossible to undo this step (old profile name is unknown and moving the entire profile back under a different name is not recommended, apart from the InvalidateCaches=1 line in compatibility.ini). </blockquote> Agree!

user633449 503 posts

September 12, 2012, 11:20:08 PM PDT

Alice, I did document the results. I can share this with anyone who is interested. Basically it summed up as the following:

17% of the times Reset was suggested it either did not work, or did not apply (It was suggested for something it can't fix).

54% of the time either the poster came back and said "Yes, Reset worked" or another user came in and said "Yes that worked", marked it helpful, etc.

10% of the time another solution was tried before Firefox Reset, but Firefox Reset would have fixed this issue as well (so, 64% of issue that reset could have fixed)

The remaining 29% are cases where neither the original poster nor another user came back and said that Reset worked or not. This is something we are trying to fix by the locking old threads proposal. But it's a safe bet that (based off these stats) a significant number of these are also fixed by Firefox Reset.

So basically, we know that roughly 64% of issues either were fixed by Firefox, or could have been fixed by Firefox reset had it been done first. We also know that only 17% of users come back and tell us "that didn't work" and that users are more likely to come and tell us that a suggested solution didn't work than to come back and tell us "it worked". So we can be pretty confident in the number that 75% or more of Firefox issues can be and are fixed by Firefox Reset.

Alice, I did document the results. I can share this with anyone who is interested. Basically it summed up as the following: 17% of the times Reset was suggested it either did not work, or did not apply (It was suggested for something it can't fix). 54% of the time either the poster came back and said "Yes, Reset worked" or another user came in and said "Yes that worked", marked it helpful, etc. 10% of the time another solution was tried before Firefox Reset, but Firefox Reset would have fixed this issue as well (so, 64% of issue that reset could have fixed) The remaining 29% are cases where neither the original poster nor another user came back and said that Reset worked or not. This is something we are trying to fix by the locking old threads proposal. But it's a safe bet that (based off these stats) a significant number of these are also fixed by Firefox Reset. So basically, we know that roughly 64% of issues either were fixed by Firefox, or could have been fixed by Firefox reset had it been done first. We also know that only 17% of users come back and tell us "that didn't work" and that users are more likely to come and tell us that a suggested solution didn't work than to come back and tell us "it worked". So we can be pretty confident in the number that 75% or more of Firefox issues can be and are fixed by Firefox Reset.

user633449 503 posts

September 12, 2012, 11:26:57 PM PDT

cor-el, the beauty of Firefox Reset is that it doesn't require changing preferences. The majority of Firefox users don't have the time to try to figure out about:config, they just want to keep working, or using Facebook to relax. The last thing they want to do is to try to fiddle with their browsers insides. If there is an easy way that they can click one button and make all their problems go away, that makes their life simpler. If they don't know what caused it, it's ok, because the problem is all gone now.

Technical people like you and I, we like to delve into the depths of our computers, figure out what makes this happen, and what's this do. Most people don't (believe me, I've worked as a PC Repair tech for years). It's easier for users to go to a new browser and keep surfing than to try to do a hard technical troubleshooting that might take hours or days instead of one quick fix.

As for users with extensions (very few users have a ton of extensions they would want to keep) we do warn them that they will lose their extensions, and most of those who have lots of extensions will come back and say "Sorry, I don't want to lose my extensions, I don't want to do Reset". At that point we go "Ok, let's try this about:config change" because we know what we are working with.

cor-el, the beauty of Firefox Reset is that it doesn't require changing preferences. The majority of Firefox users don't have the time to try to figure out about:config, they just want to keep working, or using Facebook to relax. The last thing they want to do is to try to fiddle with their browsers insides. If there is an easy way that they can click one button and make all their problems go away, that makes their life simpler. If they don't know what caused it, it's ok, because the problem is all gone now. Technical people like you and I, we like to delve into the depths of our computers, figure out what makes this happen, and what's this do. Most people don't (believe me, I've worked as a PC Repair tech for years). It's easier for users to go to a new browser and keep surfing than to try to do a hard technical troubleshooting that might take hours or days instead of one quick fix. As for users with extensions (very few users have a ton of extensions they would want to keep) we do warn them that they will lose their extensions, and most of those who have lots of extensions will come back and say "Sorry, I don't want to lose my extensions, I don't want to do Reset". At that point we go "Ok, let's try this about:config change" because we know what we are working with.

AliceWyman 6366 posts

September 13, 2012, 2:34:31 AM PDT

Tylerdowner said

Alice, I did document the results. I can share this with anyone who is interested. Basically it summed up as the following:

17% of the times Reset was suggested it either did not work, or did not apply (It was suggested for something it can't fix).

54% of the time either the poster came back and said "Yes, Reset worked" or another user came in and said "Yes that worked", marked it helpful, etc.

10% of the time another solution was tried before Firefox Reset, but Firefox Reset would have fixed this issue as well (so, 64% of issue that reset could have fixed)

The remaining 29% are cases where neither the original poster nor another user came back and said that Reset worked or not. This is something we are trying to fix by the locking old threads proposal. But it's a safe bet that (based off these stats) a significant number of these are also fixed by Firefox Reset.

So basically, we know that roughly 64% of issues either were fixed by Firefox, or could have been fixed by Firefox reset had it been done first. We also know that only 17% of users come back and tell us "that didn't work" and that users are more likely to come and tell us that a suggested solution didn't work than to come back and tell us "it worked". So we can be pretty confident in the number that 75% or more of Firefox issues can be and are fixed by Firefox Reset.

Firefox Reset (from our tests) fixes >75% of all issues it is recommended for.
..... was what you originally asserted to Noah_SUMO. So now 75% is an estimate because We also know that only 17% of users come back and tell us "that didn't work" and that users are more likely to come and tell us that a suggested solution didn't work than to come back and tell us "it worked".?

In any case, your 64% figure isn't believable, since you got it by adding these:

54% of the time either the poster came back and said "Yes, Reset worked" or another user came in and said "Yes that worked", marked it helpful, etc.

...That's not the same as saying it worked, plus you didn't give the breakdown of the OP reporting it worked, another poster, or "helpful" votes (we all know that "helpful" votes could just mean that someone clicked the wrong link in a forum reply e-mail, etc.)

10% of the time another solution was tried before Firefox Reset, but Firefox Reset would have fixed this issue as well (so, 64% of issue that reset could have fixed)

.....Maybe the other solution that was tried first and worked was the better solution, since it preserved data that a reset would have lost?

In any case, I don't buy your results. They don't even add up! 17+54+10+29 = 110 ???

''Tylerdowner [[#post-48624|said]]'' <blockquote> Alice, I did document the results. I can share this with anyone who is interested. Basically it summed up as the following: 17% of the times Reset was suggested it either did not work, or did not apply (It was suggested for something it can't fix). 54% of the time either the poster came back and said "Yes, Reset worked" or another user came in and said "Yes that worked", marked it helpful, etc. 10% of the time another solution was tried before Firefox Reset, but Firefox Reset would have fixed this issue as well (so, 64% of issue that reset could have fixed) The remaining 29% are cases where neither the original poster nor another user came back and said that Reset worked or not. This is something we are trying to fix by the locking old threads proposal. But it's a safe bet that (based off these stats) a significant number of these are also fixed by Firefox Reset. So basically, we know that roughly 64% of issues either were fixed by Firefox, or could have been fixed by Firefox reset had it been done first. We also know that only 17% of users come back and tell us "that didn't work" and that users are more likely to come and tell us that a suggested solution didn't work than to come back and tell us "it worked". So we can be pretty confident in the number that 75% or more of Firefox issues can be and are fixed by Firefox Reset. </blockquote> '''Firefox Reset (from our tests) fixes >75% of all issues it is recommended for.''' ..... was what you originally asserted to Noah_SUMO. So now 75% is an estimate because ''We also know that only 17% of users come back and tell us "that didn't work" and that users are more likely to come and tell us that a suggested solution didn't work than to come back and tell us "it worked".''? In any case, your 64% figure isn't believable, since you got it by adding these: *''54% of the time either the poster came back and said "Yes, Reset worked" or another user came in and said "Yes that worked", marked it helpful, etc.'' ...That's not the same as saying it worked, plus you didn't give the breakdown of the OP reporting it worked, another poster, or "helpful" votes (we all know that "helpful" votes could just mean that someone clicked the wrong link in a forum reply e-mail, etc.) *10% of the time another solution was tried before Firefox Reset, but Firefox Reset would have fixed this issue as well (so, 64% of issue that reset could have fixed) .....Maybe the other solution that was tried first and worked was the better solution, since it preserved data that a reset would have lost? In any case, I don't buy your results. They don't even add up! 17+54+10+29 = 110 ???

Modified by AliceWyman on September 13, 2012, 2:42:31 AM PDT

Kensie 666 posts

September 13, 2012, 3:02:12 AM PDT

Tyler - I can also tell you that no one likes getting their PC back with a clean drive.

I know you are well-meaning but that came off a bit condescending. Cor-el has been helping Firefox users for AGES. We don't just get n00bs, and I'm sure he can tell the difference. It's as simple as saying "there's an easy fix, but you'll lose x, y, z, or we can take a bit more time at it and try and solve the problem." Basically the same spiel as creating a new profile.

Also, I really get irked when we dumb down our users. Part of Mozilla's mission is making users active participants in their experience. If someone is willing and capable then we should show them the manual fix.

Tyler - I can also tell you that no one likes getting their PC back with a clean drive. I know you are well-meaning but that came off a bit condescending. Cor-el has been helping Firefox users for AGES. We don't just get n00bs, and I'm sure he can tell the difference. It's as simple as saying "there's an easy fix, but you'll lose x, y, z, or we can take a bit more time at it and try and solve the problem." Basically the same spiel as creating a new profile. Also, I really get irked when we dumb down our users. Part of Mozilla's mission is making users active participants in their experience. If someone is willing and capable then we should show them the manual fix.

user633449 503 posts

September 13, 2012, 3:05:54 AM PDT

Lucy, I totally agree with you about showing people manual fixes (apologies if i came of condescending). I think a good option would be the following:

There are two ways to fix your problem. One is X manual fix, which is a bit more involved but you can fix if you are willing. Or, if you just want to fix everything and don't worry about losing your extensions, try Reset.

Lucy, I totally agree with you about showing people manual fixes (apologies if i came of condescending). I think a good option would be the following: There are two ways to fix your problem. One is X manual fix, which is a bit more involved but you can fix if you are willing. Or, if you just want to fix everything and don't worry about losing your extensions, try Reset.

Kensie 666 posts

September 13, 2012, 3:13:13 AM PDT

Yes, I think that sounds good.

mluna 253 posts

September 13, 2012, 6:51:17 PM PDT

Hi,

Getting back to the original ideas posted by John99, it sounds like everyone wants a place to talk about difficult-to-solve questions together. I think this is a great idea and something that is easy to set up if it is a new forum specifically for that purpose. But, maybe this is more of a feature in the existing support forum? I'm not exactly sure, but if we can define it a bit more, it could just be put on the list of stuff to get done.

For the status tags, it seems to me that with the new architecture, we can add tags to forum threads now? I was just able to make up a tag and add it, but maybe that is because I'm an admin? At any rate, I think this means we can just agree on a set of tags for escalation here as John99 suggested and begin to use them to see how it goes.

Thanks for these suggestions all! Great stuff.

-Michelle

Hi, Getting back to the original ideas posted by John99, it sounds like everyone wants a place to talk about difficult-to-solve questions together. I think this is a great idea and something that is easy to set up if it is a new forum specifically for that purpose. But, maybe this is more of a feature in the existing support forum? I'm not exactly sure, but if we can define it a bit more, it could just be put on the list of stuff to get done. For the status tags, it seems to me that with the new architecture, we can add tags to forum threads now? I was just able to make up a tag and add it, but maybe that is because I'm an admin? At any rate, I think this means we can just agree on a set of tags for escalation here as John99 suggested and begin to use them to see how it goes. Thanks for these suggestions all! Great stuff. -Michelle

Kadir Topal 1215 posts

September 13, 2012, 8:22:29 PM PDT

Michelle, you are right, you can currently make up tags because you are an admin, but we could allow all contributors to assign certain tags. Then you can just filter for "hard-question" and "unsolved" and dive in.

As for separate forums: Certainly possible, and we may even go further: The other day Ibai, Matt and I were talking about extending the support forums to allow contributor discussions. Imagine a support question and embedded in it you can have a discussion thread were contributors speculate, invisible to end users. The end user continues to only see the final verdict. That lets contributors discuss all kinds of solutions without confusing end users who'd have to deal with several potential solutions. It's more or less the same as a special forum, but more more direct, and closer to the source.

Michelle, you are right, you can currently make up tags because you are an admin, but we could allow all contributors to assign certain tags. Then you can just filter for "hard-question" and "unsolved" and dive in. As for separate forums: Certainly possible, and we may even go further: The other day Ibai, Matt and I were talking about extending the support forums to allow contributor discussions. Imagine a support question and embedded in it you can have a discussion thread were contributors speculate, invisible to end users. The end user continues to only see the final verdict. That lets contributors discuss all kinds of solutions without confusing end users who'd have to deal with several potential solutions. It's more or less the same as a special forum, but more more direct, and closer to the source.

Kensie 666 posts

September 15, 2012, 2:10:25 AM PDT

I like both ideas.

Moderators should first look for threads where regular contributors need help. Having a tag would make that much easier. Would also help new contributors feel more confident and would help them learn.

I also like the invisible conversation thread. That way moderators can make suggestions to the person already helping, and coach them, rather than taking over.

I like both ideas. Moderators should first look for threads where regular contributors need help. Having a tag would make that much easier. Would also help new contributors feel more confident and would help them learn. I also like the invisible conversation thread. That way moderators can make suggestions to the person already helping, and coach them, rather than taking over.

the-edmeister 603 posts

September 15, 2012, 5:27:38 AM PDT

As far as a "status" tag for flagging a question for expert help, good idea, I have occasionally sent a PM to cor-el requesting that he take a look at a particular thread which I thought needed expert help.

KadirTopal said:  The other day Ibai, Matt and I were talking about extending the support forums to allow contributor discussions. Imagine a support question and embedded in it you can have a discussion thread were contributors speculate, invisible to end users. The end user continues to only see the final verdict. That lets contributors discuss all kinds of solutions without confusing end users who'd have to deal with several potential solutions. It's more or less the same as a special forum, but more more direct, and closer to the source.

I like that idea!

Something similar to that is happening right now with speculative postings by Contributors, confusing the Owner and others in the process of contributing their opinions to the thread.
Some days SUMO is almost like MozillaZine, where multiple Contributors post their "fix" before the Owner puts it their 2nd appearance in the thread.

As far as using the Reset, IMO that should be the 2nd step (as already mentioned by cor-el) - SafeMode and starting to troubleshoot add-ons should be the first process recommended. It's not like the "old days" where a user had to contend with a command line pref or (in Windows) a Programs menu sub-menu item - open the Help menu or use the Shft key while launching Firefox.
How is that too hard? Vs. opening the Troubleshooting Information tab?

IMO, we can't lose sight of why many people even use Firefox - the extensibility!
Most users may not even remember what extensions they were using once they are gone. And then trying to re-build the data or prefs that they saved for / with their extensions.
And for the extensions that still save data in prefs.js vs. their own .dat / .rdf /or .sqlite files, how do we guide the user to recover from that?

Lucy said: I also like the invisible conversation thread. That way moderators can make suggestions to the person already helping, and coach them, rather than taking over.

I have been using PM to provide suggestions or comments to Contributors about a thread they are "working", to keep it out of public view. No point in using 3 or 4 postings in a thread to "banter" among ourselves, when we have a neutral coner for such discussions.

As far as a "status" tag for flagging a question for expert help, good idea, I have occasionally sent a PM to cor-el requesting that he take a look at a particular thread which I thought needed expert help. ----- <pre><nowiki>KadirTopal said: The other day Ibai, Matt and I were talking about extending the support forums to allow contributor discussions. Imagine a support question and embedded in it you can have a discussion thread were contributors speculate, invisible to end users. The end user continues to only see the final verdict. That lets contributors discuss all kinds of solutions without confusing end users who'd have to deal with several potential solutions. It's more or less the same as a special forum, but more more direct, and closer to the source. </nowiki></pre> I like that idea! Something similar to that is happening right now with speculative postings by Contributors, confusing the Owner and others in the process of contributing their opinions to the thread. ''Some days SUMO is almost like MozillaZine, where multiple Contributors post their "fix" before the Owner puts it their 2nd appearance in the thread.'' ----- As far as using the Reset, IMO that should be the 2nd step ''(as already mentioned by cor-el)'' - SafeMode and starting to troubleshoot add-ons should be the first process recommended. It's not like the "old days" where a user had to contend with a command line pref or (in Windows) a Programs menu sub-menu item - open the Help menu or use the Shft key while launching Firefox. How is that too hard? Vs. opening the Troubleshooting Information tab? IMO, we can't lose sight of why many people even use Firefox - the extensibility! Most users may not even remember what extensions they were using once they are gone. And then trying to re-build the data or prefs that they saved for / with their extensions. And for the extensions that still save data in prefs.js vs. their own .dat / .rdf /or .sqlite files, how do we guide the user to recover from that? ----- <pre><nowiki>Lucy said: I also like the invisible conversation thread. That way moderators can make suggestions to the person already helping, and coach them, rather than taking over. </nowiki></pre> I have been using PM to provide suggestions or comments to Contributors about a thread they are "working", to keep it out of public view. No point in using 3 or 4 postings in a thread to "banter" among ourselves, when we have a neutral coner for such discussions.

Chris Ilias 2450 posts

September 16, 2012, 7:04:56 AM PDT

Regarding the use of Reset Firefox,
Reset Firefox is a better support experience than making users go through a lot of troubleshooting steps. A few years ago my iphone had a piece of dirt underneath the glass. I brought it in to the apple store, and once they realized the dirt could not be cleaned off (which took less than one minute), they gave me replacement phone.

It's not uncommon when a user has a problem which they think is a bug, for them to say "I don't want to be a beta tester".

If there's a common question, and all we know is that resetting Firefox fixes it, we can invite users to troubleshoot the problem on their original profile after resetting Firefox. That way, got Firefox working for the user as quick as possible, and it's the user's choice whether or not to go more in-depth.

Regarding the use of Reset Firefox, Reset Firefox is a better support experience than making users go through a lot of troubleshooting steps. A few years ago my iphone had a piece of dirt underneath the glass. I brought it in to the apple store, and once they realized the dirt could not be cleaned off (which took less than one minute), they gave me replacement phone. It's not uncommon when a user has a problem which they think is a bug, for them to say "I don't want to be a beta tester". If there's a common question, and all we know is that resetting Firefox fixes it, we can invite users to troubleshoot the problem on their original profile after resetting Firefox. That way, got Firefox working for the user as quick as possible, and it's the user's choice whether or not to go more in-depth.

AliceWyman 6366 posts

September 16, 2012, 8:48:39 AM PDT

Chris_Ilias said

Regarding the use of Reset Firefox,
<snip>
If there's a common question, and all we know is that resetting Firefox fixes it, we can invite users to troubleshoot the problem on their original profile after resetting Firefox. That way, got Firefox working for the user as quick as possible, and it's the user's choice whether or not to go more in-depth.

I don't think that it's practical to troubleshoot the original profile once a Reset is done in Firefox 15 or above, since the original profile is deleted and the old profile folder is renamed "Old Firefox Data" and dumped on the desktop (bug 731047).

It would be great if we had a list of "common questions" where a Firefox Reset is the best option ... and another list where a Firefox Reset either will NOT work or is not the best option, since there's another easy fix. It's hard to know for sure when an issue is caused by an added theme or extension, modified preferences, corrupt localstore.rdf file, bad mimeTypes.rdf file or other profile issues that a Firefox Reset WILL fix. There are other issues which a Reset WON'T fix, such as problems with Firefox program files, plugins or other installed software, hardware acceleration, and certain bookmarks, history or cookies issues (since cookies and places.sqlite are copied to the new profile). So, I think that some basic troubleshooting is still a good idea as a first step and an alternate solution to a Firefox Reset should also be offered, as Lucy mentioned, especially if the suggested solution is as easy as clearing cache and cookies.

P.S. Errors or other issues that only happen on certain websites is one type of "common question" where clearing the cache and/or cookies should be the first suggestion. Example:

https://support.mozilla.org/questions/934334 Error message whenever I use Paypals website

''Chris_Ilias [[#post-48718|said]]'' <blockquote> Regarding the use of Reset Firefox, <snip> If there's a common question, and all we know is that resetting Firefox fixes it, we can invite users to troubleshoot the problem on their original profile after resetting Firefox. That way, got Firefox working for the user as quick as possible, and it's the user's choice whether or not to go more in-depth. </blockquote> I don't think that it's practical to troubleshoot the original profile once a Reset is done in Firefox 15 or above, since the original profile is deleted and the old profile folder is renamed "Old Firefox Data" and dumped on the desktop ([https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731047 bug 731047]). It would be great if we had a list of "common questions" where a Firefox Reset is the best option ... and another list where a Firefox Reset either will NOT work or is not the best option, since there's another easy fix. It's hard to know for sure when an issue is caused by an added theme or extension, modified preferences, [http://kb.mozillazine.org/Corrupt_localstore.rdf corrupt localstore.rdf] file, bad mimeTypes.rdf file or other profile issues that a Firefox Reset WILL fix. There are other issues which a Reset WON'T fix, such as problems with Firefox program files, plugins or other installed software, hardware acceleration, and certain bookmarks, history or cookies issues (since cookies and places.sqlite are copied to the new profile). So, I think that some [[Basic troubleshooting|basic troubleshooting]] is still a good idea as a first step and an alternate solution to a Firefox Reset should also be offered, as Lucy mentioned, especially if the suggested solution is as easy as clearing cache and cookies. P.S. Errors or other issues that only happen on certain websites is one type of "common question" where clearing the cache and/or cookies should be the first suggestion. Example: *https://support.mozilla.org/questions/934334 Error message whenever I use Paypals website

Modified by AliceWyman on September 16, 2012, 9:37:24 PM PDT

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