SUMO community discussions

Nervous about Firefox Reset and lost settings

  • 27 Replies
  • Last reply by David Tenser
  1. jscher2000 - Support Volunteer
    jscher2000 - Support Volunteer 797 posts
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    Long-time users may accumulate a considerable volume of add-on data in preferences, for example, a NoScript whitelist (or the blocklist stored by my Google Hit Hider userscript). A user who reinstalls a favorite add-on and finds that this accumulated data is unavailable may be unhappy. I know I would be!

    In Firefox 13b4, a Reset does not remove the old profile, so it is possible to recover settings from the old profile. However, it would be quite challenging to explain how to do it in simple language because it isn't simple: either (i) you start up in the old profile to access the data using about:config, save it in a text editor, then restart in your new, better working profile, and paste it into the appropriate preferences; or (ii) you work with prefs.js at the disk level, a form of surgery that can cause more problems than it solves.

    In the future, it is envisioned that the old profile folder might be relocated or deleted entirely: Bug 731047 – Clean up old profile after Firefox profile reset. This will make settings recovery that much more challenging, if it is even possible.

    Before we start routinely suggesting resets, I hope we can have some guidance in place on settings recovery. Or maybe someone will create a magical add-on that can migrate preferences?

    Long-time users may accumulate a considerable volume of add-on data in preferences, for example, a [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/ NoScript] whitelist (or the blocklist stored by my [http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/95205 Google Hit Hider] userscript). A user who reinstalls a favorite add-on and finds that this accumulated data is unavailable may be unhappy. I know I would be! In Firefox 13b4, a Reset does not remove the old profile, so it is possible to recover settings from the old profile. However, it would be quite challenging to explain how to do it in simple language because it isn't simple: either (i) you start up in the old profile to access the data using about:config, save it in a text editor, then restart in your new, better working profile, and paste it into the appropriate preferences; or (ii) you work with prefs.js at the disk level, a form of surgery that can cause more problems than it solves. In the future, it is envisioned that the old profile folder might be relocated or deleted entirely: [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731047 Bug 731047 – Clean up old profile after Firefox profile reset]. This will make settings recovery that much more challenging, if it is even possible. Before we start routinely suggesting resets, I hope we can have some guidance in place on settings recovery. Or maybe someone will create a magical add-on that can migrate preferences?
  2. cor-el
    cor-el 1446 posts
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    I had to look at the page code to see how to get the Reset box as it doesn't showed for me having a lot of Firefox versions installed, each with their own profile.

    • chrome://global/content/aboutSupport.js
    • Profile reset is only supported for the default profile if the appropriate migrator exists.

    So the currently used profile needs to be selected in the Profile Manager (i.e. marked as Default=1 in profiles.ini) to get the reset button?

    I had to look at the page code to see how to get the Reset box as it doesn't showed for me having a lot of Firefox versions installed, each with their own profile. * chrome://global/content/aboutSupport.js * <i>Profile reset is only supported for the default profile if the appropriate migrator exists.</i> So the currently used profile needs to be selected in the Profile Manager (i.e. marked as Default=1 in profiles.ini) to get the reset button?

    Modified by cor-el on

  3. NoahSUMO
    NoahSUMO 443 posts
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    I agree with jscher. I was trying to find Verdi on IRC today after watching his Firefox Reset Youtube video (great job on the sound effects, btw! haha) and a new issue came to light.

    boomieboo from Youtube said

    Will this transfer my closed session (open tabs) of my previous firefox before resetting ? Also does it replace the old profile completely or just create an additional profile with some of the previous profile's settings? I want the option to go back to my firefox before the reset if I lose a lot of important data. boomieboo

    Link to comment:
    http://www.youtube.com/comment?lc=KKf5SbzYveybdkdXNu5eE5VPsr8RJFxjDcILYy12FUw

    This is a major oversight. People treat their tabs like the holy grail and are as precious to them as their bookmarks and passwords. If we were to wipe their saved tabs (or if they thought we did, but actually left them safely behind in the old profile) people would go insane in the forums demanding their 50+, 100+, 200+ tab sets back that they've been hoarding and coveting for months/years like Gollum w/ Frodo's ring in a deep dark cave somewhere. That's right, tabs = "my precious". ;)

    I understand too many tabs can be the cause for bad performance or even 1 or 2 tabs with certain heavy site content like alot of Javascript or too many flash elements. So some issues might be resolved but losing all your tabs can be very shocking to some people.

    Undo Profile Reset:
    I also agree with jscher we need some type of "easy button" feature to Undo/Revert Reset. As complicated and unfavorable as that sounds. We could limit it to certain files that we would restore including all of the personal history files (places.sqlite, formhistory.sqlite), bookmark backups, passwords, session restore history, pref.js, extensions folder, content-prefs.sqlite (per site zoom), and permissions.sqlite (exceptions for cookies, passwords, popups).

    That way if the user saw no noticeable improvement in what they perceive to be wrong with Firefox, they don't have to start from scratch when rebuilding their addon collection (including themes & personas) or resuming their session restore history.

    Is there already a bug on implementing this? I see Bug 731047 – Clean up old profile after Firefox profile reset does half the job by moving the profile to the desktop but importing the profile from the desktop doesn't look easy. I have a larger idea to re-implement the File > Import feature and finally simplify the process of importing any backups of Firefox files.

    Profile Reset bug:
    I also found some bugs on the nightly that indicate that Profile Reset was broken and not fixed, one of the side effects being that everything is erased including bookmarks. If this feature is to be included in Firefox 13 on June 13, I don't think this the first impression you want to make.

    Specific post mentioning this [Link]:

    anyone notice the new troubleshooting reset nightly option deletes everything even things it says it wont like bookmarks on 64 bit

    This issue was reported in Bug 748047 - Reset-profile feature is broken but it looks like it has no priority other than a major rating and no blocking flags. June 13 is not that far away. Unless this regression somehow does not affect the beta (that already has Reset profile) and release (that will eventually have it)? What guarantee will there be that this regression does not slip into beta or release? I can't tell what even regressed this bug from reading the comments.

    Verdi, am I exaggerating or is that bug as critical as I think it is? I know nightly is separate from Beta & Release. But it's possible whatever regressed this was also checked in to Beta & Release. I see a tracking flag that Firefox 14 is affected but I feel like Firefox 13 might be too.

    I agree with jscher. I was trying to find Verdi on IRC today after watching his Firefox Reset Youtube video (great job on the sound effects, btw! haha) and a new issue came to light. ''boomieboo from Youtube [http://www.youtube.com/comment?lc=KKf5SbzYveybdkdXNu5eE5VPsr8RJFxjDcILYy12FUw said]'' <blockquote> Will this transfer my closed session (open tabs) of my previous firefox before resetting ? Also does it replace the old profile completely or just create an additional profile with some of the previous profile's settings? I want the option to go back to my firefox before the reset if I lose a lot of important data. boomieboo <br> <br>Link to comment: <br>http://www.youtube.com/comment?lc=KKf5SbzYveybdkdXNu5eE5VPsr8RJFxjDcILYy12FUw </blockquote> This is a major oversight. People treat their tabs like the holy grail and are as precious to them as their bookmarks and passwords. If we were to wipe their saved tabs (or if they thought we did, but actually left them safely behind in the old profile) people would go insane in the forums demanding their 50+, 100+, 200+ tab sets back that they've been hoarding and coveting for months/years like Gollum w/ Frodo's ring in a deep dark cave somewhere. That's right, tabs = "my precious". ;) I understand too many tabs can be the cause for bad performance or even 1 or 2 tabs with certain heavy site content like alot of Javascript or too many flash elements. So some issues might be resolved but losing all your tabs can be very shocking to some people. '''Undo Profile Reset:''' <br> I also agree with jscher we need some type of "easy button" feature to Undo/Revert Reset. As complicated and unfavorable as that sounds. We could limit it to certain files that we would restore including all of the personal history files (places.sqlite, formhistory.sqlite), bookmark backups, passwords, session restore history, pref.js, extensions folder, content-prefs.sqlite (per site zoom), and permissions.sqlite (exceptions for cookies, passwords, popups). That way if the user saw no noticeable improvement in what they perceive to be wrong with Firefox, they don't have to start from scratch when rebuilding their addon collection (including themes & personas) or resuming their session restore history. Is there already a bug on implementing this? I see [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731047 Bug 731047 – Clean up old profile after Firefox profile reset] does half the job by moving the profile to the desktop but importing the profile from the desktop doesn't look easy. I have a larger idea to re-implement the File > Import feature and finally simplify the process of importing any backups of Firefox files. '''Profile Reset bug:''' <br> I also found some bugs on the nightly that indicate that Profile Reset was broken and not fixed, one of the side effects being that everything is erased including bookmarks. If this feature is to be included in Firefox 13 on June 13, I don't think this the first impression you want to make. Specific post mentioning this [[http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?p=11998385&sid=77cdb9bc8640edef3023a32881dc9629#p11998385 Link]]: <blockquote> anyone notice the new troubleshooting reset nightly option deletes everything even things it says it wont like bookmarks on 64 bit </blockquote> This issue was reported in [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=748047 Bug 748047 - Reset-profile feature is broken] but it looks like it has no priority other than a major rating and no blocking flags. June 13 is not that far away. Unless this regression somehow does not affect the beta (that already has Reset profile) and release (that will eventually have it)? What guarantee will there be that this regression does not slip into beta or release? I can't tell what even regressed this bug from reading the comments. Verdi, am I exaggerating or is that bug as critical as I think it is? I know nightly is separate from Beta & Release. But it's possible whatever regressed this was also checked in to Beta & Release. I see a tracking flag that Firefox 14 is affected but I feel like Firefox 13 might be too.

    Modified by NoahSUMO on

  4. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    Improve, or warn users about Tabs and History usage
    On a wider issue do we need a clear policy decision on what should be preserved and be expected to be robust and what is temporary; followed up with either: development changes to improve features, or a widespread education and publicity campaign to warn users against unsupported bad practice.

    I am thinking here specifically about users relying on History or Open Tabs remaining almost permanently available. Currently using bookmarks may have limitations but they have additional features including backup and sync facilities. How do competing browsers fair in this respect.

    <u>Improve, or warn users about Tabs and History usage</u><br/>On a wider issue do we need a clear policy decision on what should be preserved and be expected to be robust and what is temporary; followed up with either: development changes to improve features, or a widespread education and publicity campaign to warn users against unsupported bad practice. I am thinking here specifically about users relying on History or Open Tabs remaining almost permanently available. Currently using bookmarks may have limitations but they have additional features including backup and sync facilities. How do competing browsers fair in this respect.
  5. Michael Verdi
    Michael Verdi 1755 posts
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    A few thoughts:

    • The feature was designed, with an average user in mind, to be an easy way to recover from issues that may have left Firefox unusable and might otherwise take a lot of time, effort and skill to troubleshoot and fix.
    • We want to migrate data that is the most useful and least likely to be the cause of the problem. That's why we don't migrate add-ons, user prefs and other customizations.
      • Session Restore - most users don't open more than 8 tabs so this is not such a big deal. That's easily solved by bookmarks and history which are migrated. One (as yet, unfinished) use case is to offer the reset after multiple startup crashes. So imagine, you start Firefox and it crashes and you see the crash reporter. Then you restart, crash and then you get the session restore dialog. Crash again and this time maybe (we're undecided how many crashes trigger it) you are offered the reset so you use that but we restore your session so you crash yet again. :(
    • The ability to restore your old profile was not part of the feature. There are a lot of issues there:
      • It introduces the concept of profiles which quickly becomes very complicated from a concept, explanation and UI perspective. What's stored in a profile? What's the difference between plugins and extensions? Why should I use multiple profiles? How can I tell what profile I'm using? What is the command line? Why are some things saved and other not? Etc., etc.
      • We plan on removing the profile manager at some point in the future (moving that ability to an external application).
      • This is all related to why the feature only works with the default profile (Cor-el, the answer to your question is yes). The average user only has one profile. If you've discovered the mysteries of multiple profiles and are making that work, this feature is probably too simplistic or heavy-handed for you.
      • There is a privacy issue with leaving old profiles around. Currently the feature creates a new profile without explicitly telling you that. So you could then delete passwords or bookmarks and think that it is really gone when, in fact, it still exists in the old profile. To address this we'll have to do something about this (Bug 731047 – Clean up old profile after Firefox profile reset (edit - fixed link j99) ). Maybe there is a possibility of an undo button here. If so, I imagine that's a whole new feature in itself.
    • Nightly & Aurora bug (748047) - yes it's currently broken. It's a regression so it's not an issue in Beta. There is a patch to fix it. Hopefully it will all get fixed and we won't have to back anything out. I'm crossing my fingers! BTW, I'm pretty sure what happens is that a new profile is created and things aren't migrated but you can still (luckily!) use the profile manager to switch back to the old profile. This is one reason why this is being implemented in steps and on the release trains.
    • Dialog text - a number of people have commented that about this. I'm sure there is room for improvement here. One thing to note is that in the initial implementation almost nobody will find this feature. Most of the people finding it will be the people we tell about it and we should always link them to the documentation http://support.mozilla.org/kb/reset-firefox-easily-fix-most-problems which explains what's saved and what isn't. I'm sure as people use this they will give us feedback about it that we can use to improve it.
    A few thoughts: *The feature was designed, with an average user in mind, to be an easy way to recover from issues that may have left Firefox unusable and might otherwise take a lot of time, effort and skill to troubleshoot and fix. *We want to migrate data that is the most useful and least likely to be the cause of the problem. That's why we don't migrate add-ons, user prefs and other customizations. **Session Restore - most users don't open more than 8 tabs so this is not such a big deal. That's easily solved by bookmarks and history which are migrated. One (as yet, unfinished) use case is to offer the reset after multiple startup crashes. So imagine, you start Firefox and it crashes and you see the crash reporter. Then you restart, crash and then you get the session restore dialog. Crash again and this time maybe (we're undecided how many crashes trigger it) you are offered the reset so you use that but we restore your session so you crash yet again. :( *The ability to restore your old profile was not part of the feature. There are a lot of issues there: **It introduces the concept of profiles which quickly becomes very complicated from a concept, explanation and UI perspective. What's stored in a profile? What's the difference between plugins and extensions? Why should I use multiple profiles? How can I tell what profile I'm using? What is the command line? Why are some things saved and other not? Etc., etc. **We plan on removing the profile manager at some point in the future (moving that ability to an external application). **This is all related to why the feature only works with the default profile (Cor-el, the answer to your question is yes). The average user only has one profile. If you've discovered the mysteries of multiple profiles and are making that work, this feature is probably too simplistic or heavy-handed for you. **There is a privacy issue with leaving old profiles around. Currently the feature creates a new profile without explicitly telling you that. So you could then delete passwords or bookmarks and think that it is really gone when, in fact, it still exists in the old profile. To address this we'll have to do something about this ([https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731047 Bug 731047 – Clean up old profile after Firefox profile reset] <sub>(edit - fixed link j99)</sub> ). Maybe there is a possibility of an undo button here. If so, I imagine that's a whole new feature in itself. *Nightly & Aurora bug ([https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=748047 748047]) - yes it's currently broken. It's a regression so it's not an issue in Beta. There is a patch to fix it. Hopefully it will all get fixed and we won't have to back anything out. I'm crossing my fingers! BTW, I'm pretty sure what happens is that a new profile is created and things aren't migrated but you can still (luckily!) use the profile manager to switch back to the old profile. This is one reason why this is being implemented in steps and on the release trains. *Dialog text - a number of people have commented that about this. I'm sure there is room for improvement here. One thing to note is that in the initial implementation almost nobody will find this feature. Most of the people finding it will be the people we tell about it and we should always link them to the documentation http://support.mozilla.org/kb/reset-firefox-easily-fix-most-problems which explains what's saved and what isn't. I'm sure as people use this they will give us feedback about it that we can use to improve it.

    Modified by John99 on

  6. jscher2000 - Support Volunteer
    jscher2000 - Support Volunteer 797 posts
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    Most users probably do not use NoScript, but there are other add-ons that accumulate valuable information such as ScrapBook. Perhaps we need to emphasize backing up as part of the process? (Better backup tools wouldn't hurt.)

    If the "clean up" code is implemented and the old default profile folder (perhaps named something like "Old Firefox Settings") shows up on the desktop, the user can choose whether to delete it to keep it around for later mining. That will be clearer than the current behavior. Whether it makes it any easier to work with the contents once you've opened it is a different matter...

    Most users probably do not use NoScript, but there are other add-ons that accumulate valuable information such as ScrapBook. Perhaps we need to emphasize backing up as part of the process? (Better backup tools wouldn't hurt.) If the "clean up" code is implemented and the old default profile folder (perhaps named something like "Old Firefox Settings") shows up on the desktop, the user can choose whether to delete it to keep it around for later mining. That will be clearer than the current behavior. Whether it makes it any easier to work with the contents once you've opened it is a different matter...
  7. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    I actually like the fact that the old profile is retained. It allows a relatively easy reversal of the process if something goes wrong. (No need to restore an old profile the original and only default profile is still available). I do accept the privacy concerns however.

    You did not mention that apparently:

    .... The long term goal after more testing in the wild is to not keep a backup. ....
    bug 731047#c5

    That changes a simple none destructive fix that can be reversed into a simple operation that will destroy data. I do not see how you can begin to test that on the target audience. Even the Beta users are likely to be far more sophisticated than the average user with a problem.

    I actually like the fact that the old profile is retained. It allows a relatively easy reversal of the process if something goes wrong. (No need to restore an old profile the original and only default profile is still available). I do accept the privacy concerns however. You did not mention that apparently: <blockquote>.... The long term goal after more testing in the wild is to not keep a backup. .... <br/>[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731047#c5 bug 731047#c5]</blockquote> That changes a simple none destructive fix that can be reversed into a simple operation that will destroy data. I do not see how you can begin to test that on the target audience. Even the Beta users are likely to be far more sophisticated than the average user with a problem.
  8. Michael Verdi
    Michael Verdi 1755 posts
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    John99 said

    I actually like the fact that the old profile is retained. It allows a relatively easy reversal of the process if something goes wrong. (No need to restore an old profile the original and only default profile is still available). I do accept the privacy concerns however. You did not mention that apparently:
    .... The long term goal after more testing in the wild is to not keep a backup. ....
    bug 731047#c5

    That changes a simple none destructive fix that can be reversed into a simple operation that will destroy data. I do not see how you can begin to test that on the target audience. Even the Beta users are likely to be far more sophisticated than the average user with a problem.

    Long term, we HAVE to do something with the old profile. We can't keep it in place. We might leave it on the desktop, stick it in the recycle bin or delete it after some period of time. We're not sure what the right answer is but we can't leave it in place because of the reasons I stated above (how can we explain this in the UI + the UI will be going away).

    Again, we know this is a heavy handed solution but the reality is that the surgical solution of troubleshooting isn't going away and from experience we know that troubleshooting isn't very effective for most people because it's too difficult and time consuming.

    Look at it from this perspective - it literally takes seconds to solve the problem by switching browsers. This solution is like that except that it keeps a lot of your data. How cool is that?

    ''John99 [[#post-46834|said]]'' <blockquote> I actually like the fact that the old profile is retained. It allows a relatively easy reversal of the process if something goes wrong. (No need to restore an old profile the original and only default profile is still available). I do accept the privacy concerns however. You did not mention that apparently: <blockquote>.... The long term goal after more testing in the wild is to not keep a backup. .... <br/>[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731047#c5 bug 731047#c5]</blockquote> That changes a simple none destructive fix that can be reversed into a simple operation that will destroy data. I do not see how you can begin to test that on the target audience. Even the Beta users are likely to be far more sophisticated than the average user with a problem. </blockquote> Long term, we HAVE to do something with the old profile. We can't keep it in place. We might leave it on the desktop, stick it in the recycle bin or delete it after some period of time. We're not sure what the right answer is but we can't leave it in place because of the reasons I stated above (how can we explain this in the UI + the UI will be going away). Again, we know this is a heavy handed solution but the reality is that the surgical solution of troubleshooting isn't going away and from experience we know that troubleshooting isn't very effective for most people because it's too difficult and time consuming. Look at it from this perspective - it literally takes seconds to solve the problem by switching browsers. This solution is like that except that it keeps a lot of your data. How cool is that?
  9. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    Look at it from this perspective - it literally takes seconds to solve the problem by switching browsers. This solution is like that except that it keeps a lot of your data. How cool is that?

    Not at all cool !!
    If it is not fully explained in advance what will happen.
    This will no longer be a simple none destructive fix it will be like using a new browser.

    Long term, we HAVE to do something with the old profile.

    If that refers to the profile on the users machine yes I agree we have to work towards doing something better than the initial version does. We do not want it hanging around unnoticed.

    However when I read the comment quoted

    . I do accept the privacy concerns however. You did not mention that apparently:
    .... The long term goal after more testing in the wild is to not keep a backup. ....
    bug 731047#c5

    I take that to mean that the feature is being changed so that the profile is quickly and permanently scrapped. So my understanding of the bug is that initially the feature is going to change so that the old profile is moved to the to the desktop, fine it is still there if needed.

    I interpret the bug intentions to mean that the next stage will be to have the feature completely delete the old profile. This will be after long term testing. By that does it mean wait till the users get used to the button solving problems then suddenly have it also destroy the profile.

    <blockquote>Look at it from this perspective - it literally takes seconds to solve the problem by switching browsers. This solution is like that except that it keeps a lot of your data. How cool is that? </blockquote> Not at all cool !!<br/>If it is not fully explained in advance what will happen. <br/>This will no longer be a simple none destructive fix it will be like using a new browser. <blockquote>Long term, we HAVE to do something with the old profile. </blockquote> If that refers to the profile on the users machine yes I agree we have to work towards doing something better than the initial version does. We do not want it hanging around unnoticed. However when I read the comment quoted <blockquote>. I do accept the privacy concerns however. You did not mention that apparently: <br/> .... The long term goal after more testing in the wild is to not keep a backup. .... <br/> [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731047#c5 bug 731047#c5]</blockquote> I take that to mean that the feature is being changed so that the profile is quickly and permanently scrapped. So my understanding of the bug is that initially the feature is going to change so that the old profile is moved to the to the desktop, fine it is still there if needed. I interpret the bug intentions to mean that the next stage will be to have the feature completely delete the old profile. This will be after long term testing. By that does it mean wait till the users get used to the button solving problems then suddenly have it also destroy the profile.
  10. David Tenser
    David Tenser 343 posts
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    Noah_SUMO said

    This is a major oversight. People treat their tabs like the holy grail and are as precious to them as their bookmarks and passwords.

    I'm not sure where this comes from but it made me curious -- do we have any data in SUMO threads that supports this claim? I would expect that this might be the case for more "hardcore/dedicated" users, but in the general case, I'd be surprised if the people who take the time and energy to go to a support website to try to troubleshoot a problem they're having with their browser wouldn't be fine with forgetting their open tabs if that's the price they'd had to pay to fix the problem. And besides, the pages would remain in history, so it's not like any real data was lost in the end (in that regard, at least).


    I'd say let's try this with our users for a month or too and see how this works for us. This is a major achievement in terms of what it actually does for us and our users, so I hope we can at least give it an honest try before writing it off as a majorly broken feature that won't cut it.

    ''Noah_SUMO [[#post-46819|said]]'' <blockquote> This is a major oversight. People treat their tabs like the holy grail and are as precious to them as their bookmarks and passwords.</blockquote> I'm not sure where this comes from but it made me curious -- do we have any data in SUMO threads that supports this claim? I would expect that this might be the case for more "hardcore/dedicated" users, but in the general case, I'd be surprised if the people who take the time and energy to go to a support website to try to troubleshoot a problem they're having with their browser wouldn't be fine with forgetting their open tabs if that's the price they'd had to pay to fix the problem. And besides, the pages would remain in history, so it's not like any real data was lost in the end (in that regard, at least). I'd say let's try this with our users for a month or too and see how this works for us. This is a major achievement in terms of what it actually does for us and our users, so I hope we can at least give it an honest try before writing it off as a majorly broken feature that won't cut it.
  11. John99
    John99 3665 posts
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    I have certainly noticed users who appear to be dependent on open tabs rather than bookmarks. Also as I mentioned above, maybe we should also discourage users from being dependent on History, that does not backup, and in some cases they will loose it, bookmarks are not as volatile.

    None of that addresses the original statement by jscher200 relating to preferences such as a a NoSctript whitelist.

    I have certainly noticed users who appear to be dependent on open tabs rather than bookmarks. Also as I mentioned above, maybe we should also discourage users from being dependent on History, that does not backup, and in some cases they will loose it, bookmarks are not as volatile. None of that addresses the original statement by ''jscher200'' relating to preferences such as a a NoSctript whitelist.
  12. Kensie
    Kensie 666 posts
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    For me the ideal future of this feature is a troubleshooter. After a reset you get a message saying it worked, and is there any specific information you'd like to try restoring. Maybe it restores it one thing at a time and keeps asking you if everything is ok.

    For me the ideal future of this feature is a troubleshooter. After a reset you get a message saying it worked, and is there any specific information you'd like to try restoring. Maybe it restores it one thing at a time and keeps asking you if everything is ok.
  13. jscher2000 - Support Volunteer
    jscher2000 - Support Volunteer 797 posts
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    Maybe a future version of the stand-alone Profile Manager can have a feature to compare/migrate settings across profiles. <grin>

    In the short run, we might want to flag this issue for add-on authors so they have an opportunity to think about how to address this with their users as a support issue, and whether they want to add any backup features.

    (I already posted about it on userscripts.org for userscript authors: Settings Recovery - Restoring Firefox preferences in the age of "Reset" (Fx13+). So far, no responses and hardly any views...)

    Maybe a future version of the stand-alone Profile Manager can have a feature to compare/migrate settings across profiles. &lt;grin> In the short run, we might want to flag this issue for add-on authors so they have an opportunity to think about how to address this with their users as a support issue, and whether they want to add any backup features. (I already posted about it on userscripts.org for userscript authors: [http://userscripts.org/topics/112334 Settings Recovery - Restoring Firefox preferences in the age of "Reset" (Fx13+)]. So far, no responses and hardly any views...)
  14. Michael Verdi
    Michael Verdi 1755 posts
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    Lucy said

    For me the ideal future of this feature is a troubleshooter. After a reset you get a message saying it worked, and is there any specific information you'd like to try restoring. Maybe it restores it one thing at a time and keeps asking you if everything is ok.

    The whole reason and motivation for this feature was so that you DON'T have to troubleshoot. It's the anti-troubleshooting feature. :)

    Maybe the idea of it restoring one thing at a time is a good idea for that future stand-alone profile manager. It could be an advanced tool that also migrates add-on data like jscher2000 suggests.

    ''Lucy [[#post-46858|said]]'' <blockquote> For me the ideal future of this feature is a troubleshooter. After a reset you get a message saying it worked, and is there any specific information you'd like to try restoring. Maybe it restores it one thing at a time and keeps asking you if everything is ok. </blockquote> The whole reason and motivation for this feature was so that you DON'T have to troubleshoot. It's the anti-troubleshooting feature. :) Maybe the idea of it restoring one thing at a time is a good idea for that future stand-alone profile manager. It could be an advanced tool that also migrates add-on data like [https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/forums/contributors/708393?last=46846#post-46862 jscher2000 suggests].
  15. Michael Verdi
    Michael Verdi 1755 posts
    more options

    John99 said

    Look at it from this perspective - it literally takes seconds to solve the problem by switching browsers. This solution is like that except that it keeps a lot of your data. How cool is that?

    Not at all cool !!
    If it is not fully explained in advance what will happen.
    This will no longer be a simple none destructive fix it will be like using a new browser.

    It was never meant to be a non-destructive fix. It's an INTENTIONALLY destructive fix. The idea is, Firefox is broken. It's useless for you. You have given up. It's super easy to use IE, it's already on your computer. Chrome is probably there too. If you switched to another browser, you could probably get your bookmarks, history and passwords to import and you'd be on your way in seconds. Give it a try - it's pretty slick. What we're doing with the reset feature is the same thing. It's like getting a new copy of Firefox and importing your bookmarks, history and passwords. That's it. Kind of leveling the playing field. Recover from impossible to figure out issues (for many people) in a matter of seconds and move on with life.

    ''John99 [[#post-46846|said]]'' <blockquote> <blockquote>Look at it from this perspective - it literally takes seconds to solve the problem by switching browsers. This solution is like that except that it keeps a lot of your data. How cool is that? </blockquote> Not at all cool !!<br/>If it is not fully explained in advance what will happen. <br/>This will no longer be a simple none destructive fix it will be like using a new browser. </blockquote> It was never meant to be a non-destructive fix. It's an INTENTIONALLY destructive fix. The idea is, Firefox is broken. It's useless for you. You have given up. It's super easy to use IE, it's already on your computer. Chrome is probably there too. If you switched to another browser, you could probably get your bookmarks, history and passwords to import and you'd be on your way in seconds. Give it a try - it's pretty slick. What we're doing with the reset feature is the same thing. It's like getting a new copy of Firefox and importing your bookmarks, history and passwords. That's it. Kind of leveling the playing field. Recover from impossible to figure out issues (for many people) in a matter of seconds and move on with life.
  16. NoahSUMO
    NoahSUMO 443 posts
    more options

    djst said

    Noah_SUMO said
    This is a major oversight. People treat their tabs like the holy grail and are as precious to them as their bookmarks and passwords.

    I'm not sure where this comes from but it made me curious -- do we have any data in SUMO threads that supports this claim? I would expect that this might be the case for more "hardcore/dedicated" users, but in the general case, I'd be surprised if the people who take the time and energy to go to a support website to try to troubleshoot a problem they're having with their browser wouldn't be fine with forgetting their open tabs if that's the price they'd had to pay to fix the problem. And besides, the pages would remain in history, so it's not like any real data was lost in the end (in that regard, at least).

    Hey djst,
    Always good to hear back from the legend/"the boss". ;) I was a bit dramatic in saying this was a major oversight. Although the initial reaction I had when reading that Youtube comment was a forehead-slap moment. I also had a flashback of all the [countless] times I had to help people recover lost tabs (which usually was a painstaking technical explanation at times of searching for sessionstore.bak). I'm sure there's data on the forums to support this assumption. Just let me search the forums and see. Also do we have articles on How to recover lost tabs & windows/tab groups?, the hits/views on those articles could also show how common this is a issue. Number of hits on Restore previous session - Configure when Firefox shows your most recent tabs and windows?

    If I'm right about it being major, can you paypal me $30 so I can buy 2 large pizzas w/ stuffed crust? :D

    And as both you & Verdi stated, the history is not erased so it would be easy to find any missing tabs. Which is a great point, provided you remember what they were. ;) So the issue with that is, many people do not remember their entire tab set structure (which can be very large) & a bit more than the 'on average 8' Verdi quoted. So in essence they feel they have to start over from scratch since they can't remember the order, titles or urls for all their tabs. Also each tab has backward history in it as well, probably ordered in a certain way to the user's liking as well.

    Short forum search attempt (w/ keywords lost tabs or pinned tabs or restore tabs):

    62 people have this problem | 2 new this week 161 people have this problem | 4 new this week 83 people have this problem 84 people have this problem | 1 new this week 916 people have this problem | 2 new this week 221 people have this problem | 1 new this week

    In some cases, small-medium. In some, large. Really depends on the keywords searched. (Yes I realize how old those threads are. Just proving people care when tabs go poof)

    Also restoring lost tabs isn't popular currently because it looks like Firefox is saving them consistently and nothing is erasing them. What happens when Reset Firefox becomes too popular?

    I'd say let's try this with our users for a month or two and see how this works for us. This is a major achievement in terms of what it actually does for us and our users, so I hope we can at least give it an honest try before writing it off as a majorly broken feature that won't cut it.

    I'm sorry if my concern came across as "let's scrap this feature, it isn't ready for the masses/primetime". It is for the most part, but part of me is concerned for the "I have certain tabs loaded/organized the way they are" userbase. As this will dump tabs & app tabs & worst of all, now that I think about it, TAB GROUPS! Now, meh, to be honest, I've never used the Tab Groups feature. And arguably think it should have been kept as a addon rather than a built-in feature. :P

    I wanted to address that issue in the hope MattN could see if he could reincorporate session history (tabs) with some ease (not likely due to testing, baking, QA vetting, etc needed this late/close to release) or a more detailed warning on the Reset dialog prior to release of this feature.

    Though jscher's point about addon data supersedes/ties tab retention now that I think about it. Lots of add-ons are going to be affected by this. Some who deserve it (Greasemonkey [and it's scripts]) and some who don't (Adblock Plus [whitelist exceptions], NoScript [whitelist exceptions], DownThemAll [custom saving/naming settings], etc)

    ''djst [[#post-46850|said]]'' <blockquote> ''Noah_SUMO [[#post-46819|said]]'' <blockquote> This is a major oversight. People treat their tabs like the holy grail and are as precious to them as their bookmarks and passwords.</blockquote> I'm not sure where this comes from but it made me curious -- do we have any data in SUMO threads that supports this claim? I would expect that this might be the case for more "hardcore/dedicated" users, but in the general case, I'd be surprised if the people who take the time and energy to go to a support website to try to troubleshoot a problem they're having with their browser wouldn't be fine with forgetting their open tabs if that's the price they'd had to pay to fix the problem. And besides, the pages would remain in history, so it's not like any real data was lost in the end (in that regard, at least). </blockquote> Hey djst, <br> Always good to hear back from the legend/"the boss". ;) I was a bit dramatic in saying this was a major oversight. Although the initial reaction I had when reading that Youtube comment was a forehead-slap moment. I also had a flashback of all the [countless] times I had to help people recover lost tabs (which usually was a painstaking technical explanation at times of searching for sessionstore.bak). I'm sure there's data on the forums to support this assumption. Just let me search the forums and see. Also do we have articles on <u>How to recover lost tabs & windows/tab groups?</u>, the hits/views on those articles could also show how common this is a issue. Number of hits on [[Restore previous session - Configure when Firefox shows your most recent tabs and windows]]? If I'm right about it being ''major'', can you paypal me $30 so I can buy 2 large pizzas w/ stuffed crust? :D And as both you & Verdi stated, the history is not erased so it would be easy to find any missing tabs. Which is a great point, provided you remember what they were. ;) So the issue with that is, many people do not remember their entire tab set structure (which can be very large) & a bit more than the 'on average 8' Verdi quoted. So in essence they feel they have to start over from scratch since they can't remember the order, titles or urls for all their tabs. Also each tab has backward history in it as well, probably ordered in a certain way to the user's liking as well. Short forum search attempt (w/ keywords lost tabs or pinned tabs or restore tabs): <blockquote> * [https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/861318?s=lost+tabs&r=10&e=es&as=s How to restore Lost App Tabs and Tab Groups] 62 people have this problem | 2 new this week * [https://support.mozilla.org/questions/746404?s=lost+tabs&r=13&e=es&as=s I lost all my tabs I had since my last 'saved&close' ?] 161 people have this problem | 4 new this week * [https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/868990 I closed firefox and none of my tabs or group tabs saved; nothing saved, can I get it back?] 83 people have this problem * [https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/825628 All my pin Tabs are gone when I restart my Macbook. :(] 84 people have this problem | 1 new this week * [https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/793566 Pinned app tabs disappeared] 916 people have this problem | 2 new this week * [https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/792152 Firefox 4RC Pinned Tabs disappear when I close my browser] 221 people have this problem | 1 new this week </blockquote> In some cases, small-medium. In some, large. Really depends on the keywords searched. (Yes I realize how old those threads are. Just proving people care when tabs go poof) Also restoring lost tabs isn't popular ''currently'' because it looks like Firefox is saving them consistently and nothing is erasing them. What happens when Reset Firefox becomes ''too'' popular? <blockquote> I'd say let's try this with our users for a month or two and see how this works for us. This is a major achievement in terms of what it actually does for us and our users, so I hope we can at least give it an honest try before writing it off as a majorly broken feature that won't cut it. </blockquote> I'm sorry if my concern came across as "let's scrap this feature, it isn't ready for the masses/primetime". It is for the most part, but part of me is concerned for the "I have certain tabs loaded/organized the way they are" userbase. As this will dump tabs & app tabs & worst of all, now that I think about it, '''TAB GROUPS'''! Now, meh, to be honest, I've never used the Tab Groups feature. And arguably think it should have been kept as a addon rather than a built-in feature. :P I wanted to address that issue in the hope MattN could see if he could reincorporate session history (tabs) with some ease (not likely due to testing, baking, QA vetting, etc needed this late/close to release) or a more detailed warning on the Reset dialog prior to release of this feature. Though jscher's point about addon data supersedes/ties tab retention now that I think about it. Lots of add-ons are going to be affected by this. Some who deserve it (Greasemonkey [and it's scripts]) and some who don't (Adblock Plus [whitelist exceptions], NoScript [whitelist exceptions], DownThemAll [custom saving/naming settings], etc)
  17. NoahSUMO
    NoahSUMO 443 posts
    more options

    Verdi said

    John99 said
    Look at it from this perspective - it literally takes seconds to solve the problem by switching browsers. This solution is like that except that it keeps a lot of your data. How cool is that?

    Not at all cool !!
    If it is not fully explained in advance what will happen.
    This will no longer be a simple non destructive fix, it will be like using a new browser.

    It was never meant to be a non-destructive fix. It's an INTENTIONALLY destructive fix. The idea is, Firefox is broken. It's useless for you. You have given up. It's super easy to use IE, it's already on your computer. Chrome is probably there too. If you switched to another browser, you could probably get your bookmarks, history and passwords to import and you'd be on your way in seconds...

    To better explain John's stance/position on the issue, is that while we are being somewhat up front about what things will be retained, there's a few items people won't realize are never coming back [not without some complicated steps from the volunteer support team ;)]. Please see the part of his quote I bolded.

    Yes, I know, we can't be too wordy in the dialog and we can't satisfy everyone. But John is thinking more about the negative PR (& unnecessary un-reset solutions he'll have to provide) this could/will generate. And yes, we should be used to this by now (even desensitized :P).

    But introducing new features without the ability to turn them off or revert them generally rub people the wrong way. Sometimes into the "Firefox betrayed me/I don't trust Firefox anymore" zone. I think we all remember the force-fed Awesome bar fiasco in Firefox 3.0. And while everyone at Mozilla was touting how "Awesome" this feature was, there were many that were none too pleased about having bookmarks permanently fused into their location bar searches. I was also one of those user's rubbed the wrong way by that. And had advocated that from the very inception of that feature, they should have included the UI settings necessary to choose between only history, bookmarks+history, or nothing. The work for that should of been of done alongside the awesome bar work & not released before the custom UI to disable/enable it was ready. It wasn't until June 2009, 1 year later, that Firefox 3.5 brought the UI. A painful wait if not for the Hide Unvisited or Oldbar addons that we had to recommend many times.

    I'm worried that it'll be a year a later and we still haven't addressed the issue. But times are different from back then, so I'll remain partially optimistic that changes like this are put in much sooner.

    Desperate users vs. Curious unsuspecting users

    Also Verdi, in one of the SUMO meeting vids, you did admit that this could be used as a light-hearted "Hmm. Let me see if this cures a certain issue I've been having..." (I'm paraphrasing) proposition. :P

    I bolded the phrase where you said:
    Firefox is broken. It's useless for you. You have given up.

    Sorry to nitpick, but I disagree. People who haven't given up are also going to try this feature (in good faith) once they hear about it based on curiosity. That's been known since the day people heard about network.http.pipelining.maxrequests and by the throngs tweaked that pref on the tiny bit of hope that Firefox would be faster. Remember the Fasterfox era?

    There are tons of people who have a tiny quirk/gripe with Firefox (which means almost everybody :P) and once they get wind of Reset Firefox, they'll blindly click that button without stopping for a nanosecond to closely analyze that dialog warning. Although a lot of paranoid people will read it & read it carefully, yet they just may forget about tabs/tab groups/app tabs or addon data/settings (ex. Lazarus Form Recovery data or Adblock Plus custom filter lists), or cookie/password/popup exception lists, per site zoom settings/*per site download folder (*really hate this feature, don't even get me started), and who knows what else.

    This leaves room for a potential backlash when that curiosity finds that hey!, Reset Firefox didn't fix anything at all! Firefox still crashes, etc, etc. But hey... now this is missing & so is that! Why didn't Firefox protect me from myself by giving me a easy button to undo this?

    Anyway Reset Firefox has low visibility right now. And can possibly stay that way for months. But if that Youtube video goes viral or we start using Reset Firefox recommendations in our solutions or blogs & news sites tout Reset Firefox as a fix all solution that everyone should try (which they inevitably will)... Word is going to spread pretty fast. Then Twitter, Facebook, email, whatever.

    TL; DR

    I apologize for both long posts (Wall of text). I hate long posts with a passion. I just seem to pump them out every once in a while. But I feel like I have to list everything I know beforehand before someone says "Well didn't you consider..." *Sigh* I always have... I always have. :)

    Ahhhhhhhhhh! Ok... I'm good now. That was really therapeutic. :) Got it all out ahead of the summer madness. :P

    I'm also sorry if Verdi, MattN, djst or anybody else from Mozilla feels like we're lumping on the negativity/pessimism rather than celebrating a joyous occasion for this feature. But we are advising you of the potential fallout Reset Firefox may bring. Hopefully we are not flooded for requests on how to undo "Reset". But my SUMO-sense is tingling. ;)

    Thank you Verdi & MattN for all the hard work, brainstorming, visualization, and coding. And for beating me to this before I could reveal my about:reset idea I had a year or two back. :D :P

    ''Verdi [[#post-46873|said]]'' <blockquote> ''John99 [[#post-46846|said]]'' <blockquote> <blockquote>Look at it from this perspective - it literally takes seconds to solve the problem by switching browsers. This solution is like that except that it keeps a lot of your data. How cool is that? </blockquote> Not at all cool !!<br/>'''If it is not fully explained in advance what will happen.''' <br/>This will no longer be a simple non destructive fix, it will be like using a new browser. </blockquote> It was never meant to be a non-destructive fix. It's an INTENTIONALLY destructive fix. '''The idea is, Firefox is broken. It's useless for you. You have given up.''' It's super easy to use IE, it's already on your computer. Chrome is probably there too. If you switched to another browser, you could probably get your bookmarks, history and passwords to import and you'd be on your way in seconds... </blockquote> To better explain John's stance/position on the issue, is that while we are being somewhat up front about what things will be retained, there's a few items people won't realize are never coming back [not without some complicated steps from the volunteer support team ;)]. Please see the part of his quote I bolded. Yes, I know, we can't be too wordy in the dialog and we can't '''satisfy''' everyone. But John is thinking more about the negative PR (& unnecessary un-reset solutions he'll have to provide) this could/will generate. And yes, we should be used to this by now (even desensitized :P). But introducing new features without the ability to turn them off or revert them generally rub people the wrong way. Sometimes into the "Firefox betrayed me/I don't trust Firefox anymore" zone. I think we all remember the force-fed Awesome bar fiasco in Firefox 3.0. And while everyone at Mozilla was touting how "Awesome" this feature was, there were many that were none too pleased about having bookmarks permanently fused into their location bar searches. I was also one of those user's rubbed the wrong way by that. And had advocated that from the very inception of that feature, they should have included the UI settings necessary to choose between only history, bookmarks+history, or nothing. The work for that should of been of done alongside the awesome bar work & not released before the custom UI to disable/enable it was ready. It wasn't until June 2009, 1 year later, that Firefox 3.5 brought the UI. A painful wait if not for the Hide Unvisited or Oldbar addons that we had to recommend many times. I'm worried that it'll be a year a later and we still haven't addressed the issue. But times are different from back then, so I'll remain partially optimistic that changes like this are put in much sooner. === Desperate users vs. Curious unsuspecting users === Also Verdi, in one of the SUMO meeting vids, you did admit that this could be used as a light-hearted "Hmm. Let me see if this cures a certain issue I've been having..." (I'm paraphrasing) proposition. :P I bolded the phrase where you said: <br> ''Firefox is broken. It's useless for you. You have given up.'' Sorry to nitpick, but I disagree. People who haven't given up are also going to try this feature (in good faith) once they hear about it based on curiosity. That's been known since the day people heard about network.http.pipelining.maxrequests and by the throngs tweaked that pref on the tiny bit of hope that Firefox would be faster. Remember the Fasterfox era? There are tons of people who have a tiny quirk/gripe with Firefox (which means almost everybody :P) and once they get wind of Reset Firefox, they'll blindly click that button without stopping for a nanosecond to closely analyze that dialog warning. Although a lot of paranoid people will read it & read it carefully, yet they just may forget about tabs/tab groups/app tabs or addon data/settings (ex. Lazarus Form Recovery data or Adblock Plus custom filter lists), or cookie/password/popup exception lists, per site zoom settings/*per site download folder (*really hate this feature, don't even get me started), and who knows what else. This leaves room for a potential backlash when that ''curiosity'' finds that ''hey!'', Reset Firefox didn't fix anything at all! Firefox still crashes, etc, etc. But hey... now this is missing & so is that! Why didn't Firefox protect me from myself by giving me a ''easy button'' to undo this? Anyway Reset Firefox has low visibility right now. And can possibly stay that way for months. But if that Youtube video goes viral or we start using Reset Firefox recommendations in our solutions or blogs & news sites tout Reset Firefox as a fix all solution that '''everyone should try''' (which they inevitably will)... Word is going to spread pretty fast. Then Twitter, Facebook, email, whatever. === TL; DR === I apologize for both long posts (Wall of text). I hate long posts with a passion. I just seem to pump them out every once in a while. But I feel like I have to list everything I know beforehand before someone says "Well didn't you consider..." *Sigh* I always have... I always have. :) Ahhhhhhhhhh! Ok... I'm good now. That was really therapeutic. :) Got it all out ahead of the summer madness. :P I'm also sorry if Verdi, MattN, djst or anybody else from Mozilla feels like we're lumping on the negativity/pessimism rather than celebrating a joyous occasion for this feature. But we are advising you of the potential fallout Reset Firefox may bring. Hopefully we are not flooded for requests on how to undo "Reset". But my SUMO-sense is tingling. ;) Thank you Verdi & MattN for all the hard work, brainstorming, visualization, and coding. And for beating me to this before I could reveal my about:reset idea I had a year or two back. :D :P

    Modified by NoahSUMO on

  18. philipp
    philipp 1280 posts
    more options

    hello, since the reset feature still doesn't delete the old profile maybe a follow-up to about:support in the reset section or a reminder after a few days could be implemented - that may also address the privacy issue. maybe something in the sorts of "hey, your firefox got reset recently - did that resolve your problem? in this case you can finally clear up the old data from your former profile. Or: reset didn't tackle the issue - click here to revert to your old profile"

    hello, since the reset feature still doesn't delete the old profile maybe a follow-up to about:support in the reset section or a reminder after a few days could be implemented - that may also address the privacy issue. maybe something in the sorts of "hey, your firefox got reset recently - did that resolve your problem? in this case you can finally clear up the old data from your former profile. Or: reset didn't tackle the issue - click here to revert to your old profile"
  19. John99
    John99 3665 posts
    more options

    madperson,

    My concern is that this is soon likely to be to be deleted automatically by the reset feature.

    • that prevents any easy undo
    • it means anyone trying it may unexpectedly loose information

    You mention

    "hey, your firefox got reset recently - did that resolve your problem? in this case you can finally clear up the old data from your former profile. Or: reset didn't tackle the issue - click here to revert to your old profile"

    (My understanding is ) That is not going to be an option offered.

    That is not even going to be a manual option once the profile is delete.

    madperson, My concern is that this is soon likely to be to be deleted automatically by the reset feature. * that prevents any easy undo * it means anyone trying it may unexpectedly loose information You mention <blockquote>"hey, your firefox got reset recently - did that resolve your problem? in this case you can finally clear up the old data from your former profile. Or: reset didn't tackle the issue - click here to revert to your old profile" </blockquote> (My understanding is ) That is not going to be an option offered. That is not even going to be a manual option once the profile is delete.
  20. philipp
    philipp 1280 posts
    more options

    yes, it was just a humble proposal - i don't know if & what's exactly planned in enhancements for the reset feature...

    yes, it was just a humble proposal - i don't know if & what's exactly planned in enhancements for the reset feature...
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