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Wayne Mery's reply to: Thunderbird fundamental failure to function as an e-mail client for a decade.

  • 4 odgovora
  • 0 ima ovaj problem
  • 6 prikaza
  • Posljednji odgovor od firefox2220

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Wanye Mery’s comment: “You make several references to decades old bugs with not a single link to a bug report. And a reference to "I wasted my time trying to do a bug report to bugzilla which accepted my account, put me through a verification process, then wouldn't allow me to use it." which has nothing to do with Thunderbird, and I'm pretty sure has a contact address for resolving problems. And lastly, many detours unrelated to problem solving. In short, this topic is going nowhere fast. Therefore I am locking it. I am sure you have a problem. If you want help resolving your problem, please be respectful of people's time and post details about your problem and only that problem, as breifly has possible, and also please provide information requested of you. To quote the submission form you used to request assistance, "Be nice. Our volunteers are Mozilla users just like you, who take the time out of their day to help." Wayne Mery let me take time out of my day to explain where your comment failed: I have been contacted by 3 “experts” now and two things are clear: 1. You’re more focused on defending the product and yourselves than fixing bugs. 2. Not only is it that you can’t fix the bug I presented you aren’t even going to try and it will remain a bug ad infinitum. Your comment:

First: “bug” not “bugs”

Second: If it was possible to reference a previous bug report, there would be no point in reporting it, would there? So it’s mind numbingly obvious I’m commenting because there is no previous bug report. And my comments spelled that out clearly.

Third: I also made it clear someone had asked the question before, I didn’t however say to this site. Nor did I say they had reported it I merely said that it had been a bug for a decade.

Don’t use Bugzilla? And yet my search of Mozilla recommended a bug report could be filed via Bugzilla in reference to contribution to improving the product. Maybe you should look it up before commenting.

You are “pretty sure Thunderbird has a contact address” and you’ll quote that as if it meant something even though you don’t know?

Tell me, your Thunderbird programme fails, what do you suppose anyone with a computer on earth would type into their web browser first? Save you the suspense: “Thunderbird help”. Why do you suppose I’m not on Thunderbird help?

“many detours unrelated to problem solving”

A suggestion for you for the future: Make sure you only use volunteers interested resolving problems, who aren’t easily hurt by comments and don’t make stuff up to defend the product. Resolute focus on the actual issues and ignoring what is superfluous to those issues is the fundamental requirement of excellence in problem solving.

Not sure? Let me give you an example, use my first comment:

Observed in the comment:

1. Thunderbird not working and what the problem is. 2. This person is annoyed, why? He’s made a simple standard change to Thunderbird, the programme failed so he can’t use it. He has discovered it has been an ongoing failure for about a decade.

First address the superfluous: Does he have a right to be annoyed? Yes. Ignore and move onto what’s important.

Next: My options for problem solving:

Option 1. Can I resolve it with the information available: Yes: Do it. No: got to 2. Option 2. Ask for more information and try to solve. Option 3. Get hurt and upset, try to use sarcasm to defend the product and ignore the actual issue.

People who go for Option 3 shouldn’t be wasting their time, the questioners time or anyone else’s time responding to questions. For example Stans had 2 options: 1. Ignore the comment or 2. Start a battle of who’s the most sarcastic. I’ll leave it to you to figure out what’s best for your site: Industry best practice or Stans approach.

Clearly the most disrespectful waste of time was when Stans started by announcing the product was perfect and then compounded that by making a range of incongruous statements: “the product is faultless”, “I can fix the fault”, “the bug has been deliberately ignored”, “I don’t know if the bug has been reported”. Do you seriously contend that doesn’t waste my time? It is also disrespectful when an outsider advises you of a bug and the first comment made is there is no problem with the programme followed by unsustainable excuses as to why there is.

“Please provide the information requested of you.” Really? Feel free to tell me what was requested of me and was not fully answered. Stans asked me for nothing and got nothing, Mat asked for something and got a complete response.

The fact was, once again mind numbingly obvious, I was nice to your volunteers (but not the product) until your volunteer Stans started wasting my time feeding me incongruities on a subject he clearly couldn’t answer. You may not be able to follow this but there is a difference between being nice to volunteers and to a product. On close discussion with my monitor, Thunderbird has no feelings to hurt. If the volunteer gets hurt by negative comment on the product or a 10 year failure to fix it, perhaps they shouldn’t be volunteering irrelevancies.

But hey you’ve chosen to lock the comment and leave the bug unresolved for another decade….. Way to go on the sites dedication to problem solving.

p.s. New rule: You may like to advise your volunteers that it’s not a debate forum so, if they are more interested in debating a comment than answering it: Don’t.

Wanye Mery’s comment: “You make several references to decades old bugs with not a single link to a bug report. And a reference to "I wasted my time trying to do a bug report to bugzilla which accepted my account, put me through a verification process, then wouldn't allow me to use it." which has nothing to do with Thunderbird, and I'm pretty sure has a contact address for resolving problems. And lastly, many detours unrelated to problem solving. In short, this topic is going nowhere fast. Therefore I am locking it. I am sure you have a problem. If you want help resolving your problem, please be respectful of people's time and post details about your problem and only that problem, as breifly has possible, and also please provide information requested of you. To quote the submission form you used to request assistance, "Be nice. Our volunteers are Mozilla users just like you, who take the time out of their day to help." Wayne Mery let me take time out of my day to explain where your comment failed: I have been contacted by 3 “experts” now and two things are clear: 1. You’re more focused on defending the product and yourselves than fixing bugs. 2. Not only is it that you can’t fix the bug I presented you aren’t even going to try and it will remain a bug ad infinitum. Your comment: First: “bug” not “bugs” Second: If it was possible to reference a previous bug report, there would be no point in reporting it, would there? So it’s mind numbingly obvious I’m commenting because there is no previous bug report. And my comments spelled that out clearly. Third: I also made it clear someone had asked the question before, I didn’t however say to this site. Nor did I say they had reported it I merely said that it had been a bug for a decade. Don’t use Bugzilla? And yet my search of Mozilla recommended a bug report could be filed via Bugzilla in reference to contribution to improving the product. Maybe you should look it up before commenting. You are “pretty sure Thunderbird has a contact address” and you’ll quote that as if it meant something even though you don’t know? Tell me, your Thunderbird programme fails, what do you suppose anyone with a computer on earth would type into their web browser first? Save you the suspense: “Thunderbird help”. Why do you suppose I’m not on Thunderbird help? “many detours unrelated to problem solving” A suggestion for you for the future: Make sure you only use volunteers interested resolving problems, who aren’t easily hurt by comments and don’t make stuff up to defend the product. Resolute focus on the actual issues and ignoring what is superfluous to those issues is the fundamental requirement of excellence in problem solving. Not sure? Let me give you an example, use my first comment: Observed in the comment: 1. Thunderbird not working and what the problem is. 2. This person is annoyed, why? He’s made a simple standard change to Thunderbird, the programme failed so he can’t use it. He has discovered it has been an ongoing failure for about a decade. First address the superfluous: Does he have a right to be annoyed? Yes. Ignore and move onto what’s important. Next: My options for problem solving: Option 1. Can I resolve it with the information available: Yes: Do it. No: got to 2. Option 2. Ask for more information and try to solve. Option 3. Get hurt and upset, try to use sarcasm to defend the product and ignore the actual issue. People who go for Option 3 shouldn’t be wasting their time, the questioners time or anyone else’s time responding to questions. For example Stans had 2 options: 1. Ignore the comment or 2. Start a battle of who’s the most sarcastic. I’ll leave it to you to figure out what’s best for your site: Industry best practice or Stans approach. Clearly the most disrespectful waste of time was when Stans started by announcing the product was perfect and then compounded that by making a range of incongruous statements: “the product is faultless”, “I can fix the fault”, “the bug has been deliberately ignored”, “I don’t know if the bug has been reported”. Do you seriously contend that doesn’t waste my time? It is also disrespectful when an outsider advises you of a bug and the first comment made is there is no problem with the programme followed by unsustainable excuses as to why there is. “Please provide the information requested of you.” Really? Feel free to tell me what was requested of me and was not fully answered. Stans asked me for nothing and got nothing, Mat asked for something and got a complete response. The fact was, once again mind numbingly obvious, I was nice to your volunteers (but not the product) until your volunteer Stans started wasting my time feeding me incongruities on a subject he clearly couldn’t answer. You may not be able to follow this but there is a difference between being nice to volunteers and to a product. On close discussion with my monitor, Thunderbird has no feelings to hurt. If the volunteer gets hurt by negative comment on the product or a 10 year failure to fix it, perhaps they shouldn’t be volunteering irrelevancies. But hey you’ve chosen to lock the comment and leave the bug unresolved for another decade….. Way to go on the sites dedication to problem solving. p.s. New rule: You may like to advise your volunteers that it’s not a debate forum so, if they are more interested in debating a comment than answering it: Don’t.

Svi odgovori (4)

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Just a couple of comments.

  • In a decade no one has reported this serious bug you have encountered, including you. So I guess expecting someone to fix an unreported bug is something of a stretch. But then again, perhaps others do not consider it a bug, but a feature of how the program functions. I have seen thousands of folk talking about bugs because the application does not function as they assume it should. That is in itself not a bug.
  • This is a Thunderbird user support forum, not a bug reporting system so this is not the correct place for a Thunderbird bug discussion. However we do try and work through issues with folk that are interested in doing so to determine if say, we can replicate their experience. Often we can not.

If I understand this;

You deleted some email mail addresses from your mail server and got upset Thunderbird thought it should be able to connect to those accounts. That is what I have managed to piece together so far. As a result I really don't understand the topic at all.

If I have it, then that is exactly what I would expect to happen, expecting anything else is rather an odd view. Software tends to do as it is told and Thunderbird was told you have that email address.

Just be l clear. I asked three things. You completely ignored the third item which was I considered important enough to mark in bold text. It is over here https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1405248#answer-1566479 if you want to refresh your memory.

BTW that troubleshooting information would have shown exactly what accounts were configured and I would not be guessing.

Now lets get down to some tin tacks. You claim to have an issue. I am struggling to even understand it. You have mentioned issues with multiple products, some from Mozilla (Bugzilla), some from Mzla inc (Thunderbird), This forum (hosted on a Mozilla domain and developed by them) to mention but three. Only issues pertaining to Thunderbird are considered "on topic"

So lets make this simple. By refining the discussion to only the Thunderbird aspect. I am not interested in backups restoring profiles or doing a full text search. (BTW they have issues on windows appdata folders. because windows simply ignores the hidden files and folders when indexing. Just like it will report the files in the profile do not exist when searched despite them being shown in the file explorer in front of you.

What did you do? Either confirm my assumed events or place the correct sequence. What did you expect to happen?

You might even want to start a new simple topic restricted to only the Thunderbird part of your discussion as I expect this topic will also be locked for being off topic. (Thunderbird user support only)

I will clear up the tags, this has nothing to do with Firefox (any version) It is quite possible simply off topic.

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So, instead of guessing like Stans you are saying you know it wasn’t reported as a bug?

Sorry, my mistake, the programmers at Thunderbird got together and decided” “Hey wouldn’t it be a great feature if someone deletes one of their e-mail accounts Thunderbird keeps trying to log onto that account and stops working.” “Yeah, great idea and if it’s reported as a bug we can ignore it as deleting an account rendering Thunderbird useless isn’t a bug, we did it as a feature.” “Wow do you think people will like new Thunderbird falling over feature and use it often? ”

Silly me Matt, now I understand many people who’s program totally fails would see it as a feature not a bug. I’d like to meet one of those people one day so they could explain: “feature” and “bug”.

Hint here: If what I have here is a feature and not a bug then there is no such thing as a bug in computing, everything that goes wrong is a product feature…… got it.

Matt, I think you need to look up the word “delete” and see how “delete account” is actually incongruous with: “still looks for the account”.

Yes I know it’s not a Thunderbird bug reporting site, perhaps you missed the fact that I repeatedly said it was impossible to find regardless of Thunderbird asking people to report bugs.

And yes, how many times do you need to be told I know it’s not Bugzilla, I can’t reach Bugzilla?

Well Matt let me say you’re not very good at piecing stuff together regardless of the number of times it is stated. Repeat I used the Thunderbird support method for deleting an e-mail account from Thunderbird and not that I deleted it from my server, which would be an irrelevance to Thunderbird if Thunderbird didn’t have a bug. Whether or not an e-mail address is deleted from a server, once it is deleted from Thunderbird using the advised method Thunderbird should not try to access it. HINT: If Thunderbird still tries to connect to a deleted account there IS A BUG in the Thunderbird programming NOT A FEATURE.

So your next sarcastic statement seems to indicate you struggle more with understanding English than how a programme should work. HINT: Programmers tend to not create a product feature to access items deleted from the programme. A programme trying to access something DELETED from its programming isn’t what the average person (unlike you) would expect it to do nor is it the program trying to do what it’s told.

The reason I did not send the troubleshooting information is because it is useless.

“BTW that troubleshooting information would have shown exactly what accounts were configured and I would not be guessing.”

Wrong! You could not possibly know what accounts are configured using the Thunderbird troubleshooting information from my PC.

Here’s the thing, due to the sentence above which I have now decided deliberately to not explain but is fact, I now believe I have figured out what the bug (intended feature) is and why the bug (intended feature) exists and I know it needs to be fixed because, in the same circumstances, it will always appear, always be a bug (intended feature) and can only be resolved by reprogramming Thunderbird i.e. support has no solution. What I also realise is that it won’t only cause errors when deleting accounts.

I somehow doubt anyone is going to be able to figure it out regardless of how long Thunderbird eventually needs to take looking at it’s coding so thanks for your support and feel free to live with the bug (intended feature) as I will live without Thunderbird.

In the event the bug (intended feature) reappears (which it inevitably will), you can go back and forwards politely forever and never figure it out (because you don’t know the essential question to ask or even think you need to ask it). And the reason why you will need to do that is because you chose the route of sarcasm instead of ignoring superfluous comments driven by frustration and seeking to offer actual support (even after being told that’s the error you are making). Truth is, I now know what I have discovered is more important to Thunderbird than it is to me.

Your next two paragraphs: Hence my last comment (unlike this post of yours) efficient support only addresses the central issue concerning the product and ignores everything else that is unrelated. You’re explaining to me what I just explained to you in my last post. You just proved me right.

But the things you’re “not interested in” are important to someone who understands support. For example Stans incorrectly said I could correct the error by text editing one of the .js files. If I hadn’t already searched for text and found no reference to the deleted account neither he or I would know, that method didn’t work. But to you: You’re apparently not interested in finding out if the account has been deleted from the configuration settings. Wow, you’re going to be a great help then.

BTW, I have all my hidden files viewable so I know, if I highlight them all my search will encompass all. HINT: Apart from that anyone with a clue wouldn’t even consider a Thunderbird profile setting could be held in a Windows hidden file so that’s just deliberate nonsense, white noise (you do know they’re hidden to protect the WIN system not addons?) You would have to do one of your “not interested” searches to find out.

What did I do? Read the correspondence, I said it more than once. No need to confirm your assumptions when I provided the facts you don’t seem to be able to follow. Seriously how difficult is it for you to comprehend “I deleted an e-mail account using the Thunderbird suggested method and Thunderbird stopped working?” As the phrase goes: "Not rocket science." What did I expect would happen? Well, silly me, I expected Thunderbird to keep working.

This is what I mean, you’re so worked up about some little defensive attack and battle of sarcasm based on the analysis of what you don’t like, you have totally missed the actual problem described several times and that makes you look incompetent.

Every time someone tries to have a go at a comeback you simply prove you’re not capable of doing it and end up looking even worse. Recommendation: Give up. Lock the article without comment.

And, no thanks, I have no intention of starting a new topic. The original topic heading was accurate and just fine. And from this point, I would rather the bug (Thunderbird feature) remains exactly where it is safe in the knowledge sometime in the future it will cost time and effort to resolve it.

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I am done. I have no idea what the original problem you say you had even was. You have failed to clearly and concisely elucidate what it is that is the issue, or the steps someone else could follow to repeat such an "issue" so they could understand.

I wish you well on your quest of someone that will just listen to you and agree. That is not me. I do not even understand and you apparently are not prepared to make it clearer.

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Matt, I am glad you're done.

I deleted an e-mail account from Thunderbird. Thunderbird kept trying to log onto the deleted account. Because it couldn't log onto that account it couldn't send any e-mails and became useless. Two copies of the Thunderbird error message were included.

I could accept a 5 year old not being able to follow that but not a computer literate 7 year old.

Sorry but to me, that places you as thick as a brick. You shouldn't be on this site let alone commenting. (Take the hint.)

Clearly you're not even smart enough to pick up on the fact, in my last post, I already figured out it was a programming issue that support couldn't solve. So yes, from that point on you were already done.

Perhaps, if you want to continue on the site, you should take reading and comprehension lessons.

As said this issue should be locked without further comment.

Repeat: THE BUG IN THUNDERBIRD IS AN ONGOING ISSUE REQUIRING RE-PROGRAMMING AND CANNOT BE SOLVED BY THIS SITE SUPPORT.

I'll make one offer: If Thunderbird want to know the error in their program that needs resolving, they can contact me but not via this site.

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